Using an external meter by choice

[Pieter12]

There are petite and huge cameras. About the same for meters.

But the difference in size between the average meter and most cameras is tremendous. Cameras can range from small range-finders to ultra large-format. Most meters can easily be put in a pocket, not so with most cameras. BTW, I'd love to see or know which cameras you have owned with built-in incident metering.

 

[BrianShaw]

But the difference in size between the average meter and most cameras is tremendous. Cameras can range from small range-finders to ultra large-format. Most meters can easily be put in a pocket, not so with most cameras. BTW, I'd love to see or know which cameras you have owned with built-in incident metering.

Kodak Retina III; snap-on incident diffuser. Flat, but better than nothing.

 

[AgX]

Yes, my very first camera was a Retina, and I got a Baldamatic. Both have a flat diffusor, either packed in the eveready-case, or by little string. attached to a lug.

 

[wiltw]

But the difference in size between the average meter and most cameras is tremendous. Cameras can range from small range-finders to ultra large-format. Most meters can easily be put in a pocket, not so with most cameras. BTW, I'd love to see or know which cameras you have owned with built-in incident metering.

I have always somewhat of a curiosity that the Topon Super D SLR had this accessory available

 

[AgX]

Thank you!

Making myself such a dome is long time on my to-do list. And I was in the belief that no TTL SLR camera had such in their accessory range. Thus my remark above at my listing.

(By the way, I never came across any Topcon camera or accessory.)

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I do not understand your point at all.
What difference it makes whether one brings the camera or a meter to the subject?
(I leave aside mass and volume, which may matter in either case.)

Furthermore, at many situations incident lighting is the same at camera and subject location.

There were indeed cameras with built-in incident-lighting meter, I myself got two of them, including my very first camera.

Using a hand held meter is more convenient especially if the camera is mounted on a tripod.

 

[AgX]

I accept this argument.

 

[BradS]

...Does anyone else find themselves using a handheld meter even when their camera has a functional internal meter?

No. Although I do have a Gossen LunaPro digital and I do use it with the cameras which do not have a built in meter and those with broken or inaccurate meters, I do not use the hand held meter when using cameras with known good meters.

 

[Sirius Glass]

An incident meter built-in to a camera would be pretty ridiculous, since incident light should be measured at the subject's position, not the taking position. You might as well use a handheld incident meter at that point.

Actually Hasselblad did offer a prism viewer with a reflective built in meter and an incident meter on the top of the prism.

 

[wiltw]

Thank you!

Making myself such a dome is long time on my to-do list. And I was in the belief that no TTL SLR camera had such in their accessory range. Thus my remark above at my listing.

(By the way, I never came across any Topcon camera or accessory.)

Originally the Expodisk was brought out a number of decades ago, as an incident metering in front of lens add on. It was only with the introduction of digital sensors that they started to offer it as a White Balance determinant.. Oddly, Exposdisk is no longer marketed as an incident metering device.
As for homebrew hemisphere, there is the challenge of determining what the incident hemispere should register as a reading, if one does not have a handheld incident meter to use as the 'calibration' standard. I have no idea what the Topcon instructions were.
Rather more convenient to carry Expodisk than the Topcon hemisphere offering that was pictured.

 

[tokam]

No. Although I do have a Gossen LunaPro digital and I do use it with the cameras which do not have a built in meter and those with broken or inaccurate meters, I do not use the hand held meter when using cameras with known good meters.

That's my approach too. My Canon F1-N, T90, EF and Minolta Dynax 7's all agree to within a half stop. Allowing for metering pattern differences I'm happy with the results.

I'm itching to get out again with my Mamiya RZ67 and Gossen Profisix, (Luna Pro SBC), with Gosen Profispot attachment. I know it's a bulky old school meter but I can't yet justify a high-end Sekonic meter. One of these days...

 

[BrianShaw]

That's my approach too. My Canon F1-N, T90, EF and Minolta Dynax 7's all agree to within a half stop. Allowing for metering pattern differences I'm happy with the results.

I'm itching to get out again with my Mamiya RZ67 and Gossen Profisix, (Luna Pro SBC), with Gosen Profispot attachment. I know it's a bulky old school meter but I can't yet justify a high-end Sekonic meter. One of these days...

You have a great meter. Other than reducing bulk, what other functionality do you need/want?

 

[faberryman]

Putting one of those diffuser discs on a lens does not turn an in-camera reflective meter into an incident meter. It still measures the light reflected off the subject and not the light falling on the subject, unless of course you take your diffuser equipped camera over to where the subject is and aim it back to the spot from which you intend to take the picture. Those diffuser discs were invented by someone who well knew that you can sell pretty much any gadget to a photographer, since most photographers think that the only thing holding them back from fame and fortune is their camera. If you think your photography will be improved by having an incident meter, buy an incident meter. The upsides are that you will actually get an incident light reading and, more importantly, you won't have to to screw the diffuser disc on and off your lens every time you want to take a picture.

 

[BrianShaw]

Putting one of those diffuser discs on a lens does not turn an in-camera reflective meter into an incident meter. It still measures the light reflected off the subject and not the light falling on the subject, unless of course you take your diffuser equipped camera over to where the subject is and aim it back to the spot from which you intend to take the picture. Those diffuser discs were invented by someone who well knew that you can sell pretty much any gadget to a photographer, since most photographers think that the only thing holding them back from fame and fortune is their camera.

The diffuser disk certainly needs to be used correctly to work as it should!

 

[drmoss_ca]

Putting one of those diffuser discs on a lens does not turn an in-camera reflective meter into an incident meter. It still measures the light reflected off the subject and not the light falling on the subject, unless of course you take your diffuser equipped camera over to where the subject is and aim it back to the spot from which you intend to take the picture.

I assume that would be the way they were intended to be used.

 

[faberryman]

I assume that would be the way they were intended to be used.

The Expodisc manual does say to go over to the subject and aim it back toward the spot from which you will be taking the photo. I wonder how many people with an ExpoDisc do that. With the advent of digital cameras, the manufacturer also suggests that you use the ExpoDisc to set white balance.

 

[drmoss_ca]

Well, whatever the manual says, it makes no sense to point a diffuser dome AT a subject. We must still use our brains despite what manuals may say.

 

[BMbikerider]

I have been totally spoiled because for the last 6 or 7 years I have not had to use a seperate meter. However I bought really nice Bronica SQ-a and today was the 1st time I was able to get out in lovely soft winter sunshine to use it in combination with a Minolta Autometer 3. I had forgotten how fiddly the A/meter 3 was to use because if mishandled it is all too easy to change the ISO speed, shutter/aperture and not notice until afterwards when it is too late. Don't get me wrong the Autometer 3 is incredibly accurate especially using the 5 degree spot attachment. I just have to be careful and check every-time I use it. The effect of this is each shot is carefully considered so where I would use perhaps 3x 35mm frames I try to make each frame count

 

[BrianShaw]

Well, whatever the manual says, it makes no sense to point a diffuser dome AT a subject. We must still use our brains despite what manuals may say.

The Kodak Retina III manual, on page 36, is perfectly clear about the proper metering technique.

Topcon was a pro camera, so I’m sure that their documentation was correct… and their pro users knew or were trained how to incident meter.

 

[Chan Tran]

Putting one of those diffuser discs on a lens does not turn an in-camera reflective meter into an incident meter. It still measures the light reflected off the subject and not the light falling on the subject, unless of course you take your diffuser equipped camera over to where the subject is and aim it back to the spot from which you intend to take the picture. Those diffuser discs were invented by someone who well knew that you can sell pretty much any gadget to a photographer, since most photographers think that the only thing holding them back from fame and fortune is their camera. If you think your photography will be improved by having an incident meter, buy an incident meter. The upsides are that you will actually get an incident light reading and, more importantly, you won't have to to screw the diffuser disc on and off your lens every time you want to take a picture.

deleted

 

[wiltw]

Putting one of those diffuser discs on a lens does not turn an in-camera reflective meter into an incident meter. It still measures the light reflected off the subject and not the light falling on the subject, unless of course you take your diffuser equipped camera over to where the subject is and aim it back to the spot from which you intend to take the picture. Those diffuser discs were invented by someone who well knew that you can sell pretty much any gadget to a photographer, since most photographers think that the only thing holding them back from fame and fortune is their camera. If you think your photography will be improved by having an incident meter, buy an incident meter. The upsides are that you will actually get an incident light reading and, more importantly, you won't have to to screw the diffuser disc on and off your lens every time you want to take a picture.

One characteristic not sufficient pointed out with a 'diffusion disk incident light adapter' is the fact that the flat disk is really best suited for metering light falling upon FLAT ART, whereas a diffusion hemisphere (like the Topcon accessory) is better suited to the 3D subject.

At 9am PST, I just did a series of measurements using hemisphere vs flat disk, with the meter held upright as if 'pointed at the camera lens' (the way incident metering is usually done). and in a series of different angles relative to sun position these were the recorded values...(measurement occured at different locations, accounting for the intensity variation even with same incident tool)

Hemisphere vs. Flat

• 5.6 +0.8EV vs 4 +0.9EV
• 16 +0.6EV vs. 8 +0.5EV
• 22 +0.7EV vs 22 +0.0EV
• 16 + 0.9EV vs 8 +0.2EV
• 22 + 0.8EV vs. 16 + 0.9EV
• 11 +0.8EV vs. 11 +0.4EV

One can see that differences between hemisphere vs. flat ranged from -0.4EV to -2.7EV lower value for the flat disk.

 

[BrianShaw]

One characteristic not sufficient pointed out with a 'diffusion disk incident light adapter' is the fact that the flat disk is really best suited for metering light falling upon FLAT ART, whereas a diffusion hemisphere (like the Topcon accessory) is better suited to the 3D subject.

True, unless the user is a practitioner of Dunn’s duplex metering method.

 

[wiltw]

True, unless the user is a practitioner of Dunn’s duplex metering method.

I just shot these with camera mounted on tripod for absolute consistency of framing. In the series, these were the test conditions:
ISO 400, 1/30, f/stop set as metered via the following techniques. Canon 7DII 100mm f/2

1. metered via Minolta Spotmeter F on 4th grey patch (18% grey), f/10
2. metered via Minolta Autometer Vf with hemisphere pointed from subject position toward lens, f/9
3. metered via Minolta Autometer Vf with flat disk pointed from subject position toward lens, then backward toward light source (sun thru window), then two readings averaged, f/11

Reading #1 was taken as the 'control' to indicate 'proper exposure' of backlit subject using backlit grey card and one-degree spotmeter
Reading #2 was taken to see how standard incident hemisphere reading would vary from the 'control'
Reading #3 used the Dunn method of exposure determination to see how it would vary from the 'control'

You can draw your conclusions from the resulting photos posted. No Exposure adjustments were made during postprocessing, only White Balace.
My conclusion is that Dunn method is not appreciably better than the other two, and given the need for additional reading and averaging of two readings, I will not incorporate it due to added work, extra drain on the brain, but not significant improvement in results vs. techniques that I alread have been using.

 

[faberryman]

Is there an equivalent to Sunny 16 for indoor lighting, or were the films so slow at the time Sunny 16 was invented that you always had to use flash? Then you would have to get into all that guide number business. By the time I got involved they had come out with automatic flashes. I had a Pentax SP500 at the time and Ilusted after one of those big potato masher Honeywell Strobonar flashes. I had to settle for a small Vivitar unit. I have forgotten the model. I almost never used it.

 

[BrianShaw]

Wiltw… I don’t disagree that 1 reading is better than 2 with some arithmetic, but how about the condition of a single flat diffuser reading pointed toward the camera? Duplex metering may be better than that; who knows. Also recall that there were conditions associated with duplex metering… it was not intended to always be the right method. I’d have to walk all the way to the bookshelf to recall what those conditions were, however.

Thanks for your experimental data!