Tri-X in Rodinal Failure

Ian Grant · May 12, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
You are most probably seeing micro-reticulation due to variation in temperature. See this informative post by @Ian Grant who advises keeping temperature variation within +/- 1C throughout the process.

John Davies perhaps one of the best landscape (now urban) photographers in the world teaches in Liverppol. Henoticed that students all using the same films and developers had very differing results when it came to grain, some years ago he noted that the most uncontrolled factor was temperature control, and the poorer the students controls the more graininess.

Rodinal contains free Hydroxide and that softens emulsions some more than others, Acros was one film with issues but I think it used some Whale gelatin which is different to Bovine gelatin.

Ian

ChristopherCoy · May 12, 2020

Ian Grant said:
John Davies perhaps one of the best landscape (now urban) photographers in the world teaches in Liverppol. Henoticed that students all using the same films and developers had very differing results when it came to grain, some years ago he noted that the most uncontrolled factor was temperature control, and the poorer the students controls the more graininess.

Rodinal contains free Hydroxide and that softens emulsions some more than others, Acros was one film with issues but I think it used some Whale gelatin which is different to Bovine gelatin.

Ian

My thermometer just arrived this morning. After I shoot the 5 rolls for my exposure experiment I will try to get a gallon or two of distilled water right at 68 degrees and hold it there throughout the development of all the rolls. Not quite sure how I'm going to pull that off just yet, but I'm trying to figure it out. My goal is to be a precise as possible, notate every single degree or millilitre mark,

MattKing · May 12, 2020

Provided you are somewhere close to 68F, it is much better to work at room temperature and adjust your developing time to that working temperature.
By the way, are you using distilled water because your tap water is poor?

ChristopherCoy · May 12, 2020

MattKing said:
Provided you are somewhere close to 68F, it is much better to work at room temperature and adjust your developing time to that working temperature.
By the way, are you using distilled water because your tap water is poor?

Ambient temperatures vary greatly around the boat. Although we have two A/C's on board, the master stateroom can be warmer or cooler than the salon, and the salon can be warmer or cooler than the galley depending on the time of day. Our boat also has a lot of windows so it's very hard to get a consistent room temperature throughout the boat.

And I use distilled water that I buy by the gallon because our water comes from the city, goes through a series of pvc pipes to reach our dock (in our case under a channel of salt water), travels down the dock in metal piping, goes through a hose at the faucet in our slip to the poly holding tank on our boat, and then gets pumped throughout the boat in PEX lines with a 12v water pump. Although it's city supplied water, there are too many variants that it goes through to provide consistent results. So I decided to use distilled water for everything I do.

MattKing · May 12, 2020

ChristopherCoy said:
Ambient temperatures vary greatly around the boat. Although we have two A/C's on board, the master stateroom can be warmer or cooler than the salon, and the salon can be warmer or cooler than the galley depending on the time of day. Our boat also has a lot of windows so it's very hard to get a consistent room temperature throughout the boat.

You don't need a constant temperature.
You just need a relatively stable temperature for the time you are developing the film.
It can actually change during the process, as long as the change is gradual, and your solutions (with the possible exception of the developer) simply change with the ambient temperature.
In a boat in Texas I probably would develop film in the evening, when the temperature outside is changing slowly.

ChristopherCoy · May 12, 2020

MattKing said:
In a boat in Texas I probably would develop film in the evening, when the temperature outside is changing slowly.

We maintain a general temp between 72 to 75 during the day with the A/C's.

In the case of the first set of negatives, the distilled water was kept under the sink in a non- air conditioned hatch, so there is a possibility that the temps were even higher than I suspect. Especially because the back of that cabinet is the hull and was getting hit with direct morning sunlight.

I want to be as scientific and as strict as I can in my experiment so that I can get the absolute best results and know what each film/developer combo is capable of.

Pieter12 · May 12, 2020

I rarely shoot Tri-X, but I always process in Rodinal. I knew one of my portfolio prints was shot on 35mm TX400 rated at 200. Here is a scan of the correct 8x10 print. I have since printed it 11x14 and it looks fine. Of course, there is a lot of texture and shadow so it may not show what you need to see best.

BradS · May 12, 2020

Tri-X and HC-110 are a match made in heaven. D76 isn't bad either.

I like HC-110 in the 1+39 dilution. Makes it easy to mix up 400ml.

ChristopherCoy · May 12, 2020

BradS said:
Tri-X and HC-110 are a match made in heaven. D76 isn't bad either.

I like HC-110 in the 1+39 dilution. Makes it easy to mix up 400ml.

For my experiment, I'm testing HC110 at dilution b for 3 minutes and 45 seconds, and the unofficial dilution h for 7 minutes and 30 seconds, both at 68°F.

BradS · May 12, 2020

ChristopherCoy said:
For my experiment, I'm testing HC110 at dilution b for 3 minutes and 45 seconds, and the unofficial dilution h for 7 minutes and 30 seconds, both at 68°F.

I can never keep the HC-110 dilution nomenclature straight...is dilution H 1+63 ? essentially, half dilution b?
Anyway, I think you will be pleased...or, at least, more happy with Tri-X in HC-110. Be careful with the agitation and temperature.

ChristopherCoy · May 12, 2020

BradS said:
I can never keep the HC-110 dilution nomenclature straight...is dilution H 1+63 ? essentially, half dilution b?
Anyway, I think you will be pleased...or, at least, more happy with Tri-X in HC-110. Be careful with the agitation and temperature.

Yup. "B" is 1:31 at 3.75 minutes, "H" is 1:62 and 7.5 minutes. Half the working strength and double the time. At least that's what all the unofficial literature says, including the Mass Dev Chart.

Wallendo · May 12, 2020

Kodak's published times for HC-110 dilution B (1:31) is as you listed, but I prefer to develop it for 5 minutes. I think you'll find that many users find the Kodak times to be too short - in fact the massive development chart recommends 4.5-6 minutes, specifically noting that the Kodak time is considered too short.
Check out this incredibly useful page: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/
If using dilution H, it is important the you use at least 6ml of HC-110. You may need to adjust the total volume of liquid to accommodate this. I personally haven't noticed much difference between dil B at 5 minutes and dilution H at 7.5m

ChristopherCoy · May 12, 2020

Wallendo said:
Kodak's published times for HC-110 dilution B (1:31) is as you listed, but I prefer to develop it for 5 minutes. I think you'll find that many users find the Kodak times to be too short - in fact the massive development chart recommends 4.5-6 minutes, specifically noting that the Kodak time is considered too short.
Check out this incredibly useful page: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/
If using dilution H, it is important the you use at least 6ml of HC-110. You may need to adjust the total volume of liquid to accommodate this. I personally haven't noticed much difference between dil B at 5 minutes and dilution H at 7.5m

I've read a bunch of conflicting information on Kodak's published times of 3.75 minutes. Most say that it is incorrect, some have challenged it taking their argument directly to Kodak, and others have just done as you do and extend the development time. For accuracy though, I'm going to do the base test of dilution B as Kodak suggests.

I read the page you linked to in its entirety yesterday, as well as this one ( http://www.mironchuk.com/hc-110.html ) and many more.

As it stands I'm shooting three rolls of film, all bracketed, and developing in Rodinal 1:50 at three different times - 11mins, 13 mins, and 15 mins. The HC110 will be done as per Kodak's published information, and the unofficial dilution H information.

I may decide to add one additional roll for HC110 at an average time of 5.5 minutes.

Lachlan Young · May 12, 2020

ChristopherCoy said:
should I experiment with stand/semi-stand development and if so what do you recommend?

Not worth wasting time on - while adjusting agitation cycles frequency can finesse gross contrast, all the rest of the purported properties of stand/ semi-stand don't really exist.

MattKing · May 12, 2020

ChristopherCoy said:
We maintain a general temp between 72 to 75 during the day with the A/C's.

In the case of the first set of negatives, the distilled water was kept under the sink in a non- air conditioned hatch, so there is a possibility that the temps were even higher than I suspect. Especially because the back of that cabinet is the hull and was getting hit with direct morning sunlight.

I want to be as scientific and as strict as I can in my experiment so that I can get the absolute best results and know what each film/developer combo is capable of.

72 to 75F is great. Just make sure that all your solutions have a chance to get to the same temperature, then use that temperature and the associated development time.
Adjusting development time to the temperature is scientific and strict.

Ian Grant · May 13, 2020

Christopher, HC110 isn't great, have a look at Kodak's own comparison charts it's their worst developer, their best is Xtol and it's excellent.

Personally I used Xtol replenished alongside Rodinal for close to 20 years. I would never use Rodinal for a faster 400 ISO film, except perhaps Tmax 400, but found Xtol superb with all films, I only used replenished, which is really easy and cheap.

When I'm in Turkey I work at the ambient water temperature which is usually 27ºC, I have no issues but remarkably am able to keep the entire cycle including washing to +/- 0.2ºC of that temperature, it just stays stable because I'm workingat the ambient temperature, it would be near impossible to work at 20ºC.

Ian

ChristopherCoy · May 13, 2020

I started my experiment today. I shot 6 rolls total, and each roll is divided into 12 frames of +1EV, box speed, and -1EV. Three will be developed in Rodinal 1:50 at 11mins, 13mins, and 15 mins respectively. The other three will be developed in HC110 for 3.75mins, 5.6mins, and 7.5mins respectively. Everything will be processed at 68ºF if I can manage it, if its too difficult then I'll get as close as I can and adjust times per the Mass Dev Chart.

I shot everything in Aperture Priority, at F/8, and noted the shutter speed for each set of exposures. Weather was bright, but mostly cloudy. It didn't change much at all through the shoot though. I started the first roll at 3:18pm, and ended the last roll at 3:42pm. Each roll has a set of notes as well.

The box was filled with different color bath towels, as well as a gray card. Below is some phone pics of how I set it up. It was set up in the shade of palm trees.

ETA: Everything was metered TTL with center weighted metering.

glbeas · May 13, 2020

By the time you finish that you are going to have that film on a very short leash! Way to go!

Horatio · May 13, 2020

I'm waiting for your results before I process my second roll of Edu 400 in Rodinal.

kerrpanda · May 13, 2020

I don't have A/C in the home and temps vary widely throughout the day. I've adjusted to this by keeping some refrigerated water and microwaved water on hand when I am doing multiple rolls of film. Dilute with cold or hot water, check temp, repeat as necessary. Don't forget to leave room at the top of the graduate

Horatio · May 14, 2020

ChristopherCoy said:
I started my experiment today. I shot 6 rolls total, and each roll is divided into 12 frames of +1EV, box speed, and -1EV. Three will be developed in Rodinal 1:50 at 11mins, 13mins, and 15 mins respectively. The other three will be developed in HC110 for 3.75mins, 5.6mins, and 7.5mins respectively. Everything will be processed at 68ºF if I can manage it, if its too difficult then I'll get as close as I can and adjust times per the Mass Dev Chart.

I shot everything in Aperture Priority, at F/8, and noted the shutter speed for each set of exposures. Weather was bright, but mostly cloudy. It didn't change much at all through the shoot though. I started the first roll at 3:18pm, and ended the last roll at 3:42pm. Each roll has a set of notes as well.

The box was filled with different color bath towels, as well as a gray card. Below is some phone pics of how I set it up. It was set up in the shade of palm trees.

ETA: Everything was metered TTL with center weighted metering.

Any updates?

ChristopherCoy · May 14, 2020

Horatio said:
Any updates?

All three Rodinal rolls were developed last night, and I have scanned them for a preliminary idea. Right now I'm trying to figure out the best way to scan them for the most accurate representation of them before I share them.

The HC110 was delivered today but I dont think I'll be able to develop those rolls until Monday evening.

glbeas · May 14, 2020

Most scanners have an automatic exposure control which makes comparing negs in this case hard to do. Way back when you would make a contact proof sheet that would show you what you need to know.

ChristopherCoy · May 14, 2020

glbeas said:
Most scanners have an automatic exposure control which makes comparing negs in this case hard to do. Way back when you would make a contact proof sheet that would show you what you need to know.

See... technology screws up everything!

glbeas · May 14, 2020

Do you have print paper and darkroom access?

Tri-X in Rodinal Failure

Ian Grant

ChristopherCoy

MattKing

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ChristopherCoy

MattKing

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ChristopherCoy

Pieter12

BradS

ChristopherCoy

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ChristopherCoy

Wallendo

ChristopherCoy

Lachlan Young

MattKing

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Ian Grant

ChristopherCoy

glbeas

Horatio

kerrpanda

Horatio

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