Toning B&W Slides with Kala Namak

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 17, 2022

MODERATOR's NOTE:
This thread was created by moving a number of existing posts from another thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/salt-free-salt-print-toned-with-himalayan-black-salt.155417/. There may be some discontinuities arising from that!
The OP's introduction to this thread follows:

Kala Namak is a popular edible salt which can be used as a substitute for direct polysulfide toners as originally demonstrated by @nmp for salt prints. The salt can be used as indirect sepia toner for B&W slides and silver gelatin prints, as a second developer in B&W reversal processing and also as a nucleating agent. The easy availability of the salt across the world, the relative safety of the toner compared to more toxic alternatives, and its remarkable effectiveness in sepia toning make Kala Namak toning an interesting subject for experimentation and study. This thread is meant for sharing and discussing your experience of using Kala Namak for toning B&W slides.

@nmp @RalphLambrecht : just wanted to know if you figured out a black salt based substitute for sulphide toner. Is there any recipe, example and experiences that you can share?

nmp · Jan 17, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
@nmp @RalphLambrecht : just wanted to know if you figured out a black salt based substitute for sulphide toner. Is there any recipe, example and experiences that you can share?

Hi, Raghu:

My work was limited to salt prints and POP - not silver gelatin, if that's your interest - the formula being the same as in this thread with some more background here:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...out-black-salt-makes-a-terrific-toner.148338/

Ralph has a modified version for silver gelatin here as SFT-9:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/attachments/photorecipebook-pdf.195492/

Feel free to add to the knowledge base...

:Niranjan.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 17, 2022

nmp said:
My work was limited to salt prints and POP - not silver gelatin, if that's your interest - the formula being the same as in this thread with some more background here:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...out-black-salt-makes-a-terrific-toner.148338/

Ralph has a modified version for silver gelatin here as SFT-9:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/attachments/photorecipebook-pdf.195492/

.

Thank you Niranjan! This is most useful.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 19, 2022

nmp said:
Yeah...check the original thread that I linked to where all of these different salts are discussed. The one I used is clearly the so-called Kala Namak. According to this one site, Himalayan Pink salt is a precursor of Kala Namak (they add a bunch of other things that may or may not increase the sulfur content.) Anyway, feel free to try the Pink salt and see if it is active enough for the purpose of toning or may be even better than Kala Namak.

Yesterday I bought Keya Black Salt and did a quick toner test. I mixed two TSP of black salt in a small bowl of water. It formed a dark liquid and left some residue at the bottom of the bowl. The liquid was quite alkaline - around 11 on my pH paper. So I didn't add Sodium carbonate to it. I bleached two scrap B&W slides in a Ferricyanide+Bromide bleach and used them to test the black salt toner. The bleached slides got toned in less than a minute!! The toned slide looked fine - golden brown tone when wet. I also tried to tone a slide without bleaching as I was curious to find out if the toner can convert silver itself to silver sulfide. However, even after 30 minutes, there was no noticeable toning. Not really a show-stopper as I normally bleach and tone.

I am both delighted and shocked at the end of the test. I'll scan one of the toned slides and post in this thread later. Thanks @nmp and @RalphLambrecht for your insights.

nmp · Jan 20, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Yesterday I bought Keya Black Salt and did a quick toner test. I mixed two TSP of black salt in a small bowl of water. It formed a dark liquid and left some residue at the bottom of the bowl. The liquid was quite alkaline - around 11 on my pH paper. So I didn't add Sodium carbonate to it. I bleached two scrap B&W slides in a Ferricyanide+Bromide bleach and used them to test the black salt toner. The bleached slides got toned in less than a minute!! The toned slide looked fine - golden brown tone when wet. I also tried to tone a slide without bleaching as I was curious to find out if the toner can convert silver itself to silver sulfide. However, even after 30 minutes, there was no noticeable toning. Not really a show-stopper as I normally bleach and tone.

I am both delighted and shocked at the end of the test. I'll scan one of the toned slides and post in this thread later. Thanks @nmp and @RalphLambrecht for your insights.

Very intriguing....look forward to seeing the pictures. I might try some bleach/tone on salt/POP myself and see what happens - particularly for POP where there was a more subdued direct toning effect (not as good as selenium which was my benchmark at the time.)

:Niranjan.

P.S. That's a really high pH - I don't recall if I checked it on my solution - I'll do it next time.

Ivo Stunga · Jan 20, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Yesterday I bought Keya Black Salt and did a quick toner test. I mixed two TSP of black salt in a small bowl of water. It formed a dark liquid and left some residue at the bottom of the bowl. The liquid was quite alkaline - around 11 on my pH paper. So I didn't add Sodium carbonate to it. I bleached two scrap B&W slides in a Ferricyanide+Bromide bleach and used them to test the black salt toner. The bleached slides got toned in less than a minute!! The toned slide looked fine - golden brown tone when wet. I also tried to tone a slide without bleaching as I was curious to find out if the toner can convert silver itself to silver sulfide. However, even after 30 minutes, there was no noticeable toning. Not really a show-stopper as I normally bleach and tone.

I am both delighted and shocked at the end of the test. I'll scan one of the toned slides and post in this thread later. Thanks @nmp and @RalphLambrecht for your insights.

I've been thinking toning slides for quite some time and this intrigued me very, very much, especially the tone acquired!
Could you share this process to a darkroom noob? I have black salt and chems found in Ilford recipe.
And am waiting for examples : )

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 21, 2022

Ivo Stunga said:
I've been thinking toning slides for quite some time and this intrigued me very, very much, especially the tone acquired!
Could you share this process to a darkroom noob? I have black salt and chems found in Ilford recipe.
And am waiting for examples : )

I'm yet to scan the slides I toned with Black Salt toner. But preparing and using Black Salt toner is very easy.

1. Develop B&W slides in your favourite reversal processing workflow.
2. Bleach the slides for 3-5 minutes using a rehalogenating bleach.
3. Rinse in water for a minute or longer.
4. Rinse in 2% Sodium sulfite solution for a minute.
5. Rinse in water for a minute.
6. Immerse the reels fully in Black Salt toner and agitate slowly for 2 minutes by rotating.
7. Wash

Rehalogenating Bleach
Potassium bromide 10.0 g
Potassium ferricyanide 30.0g
Water to make 1l

Black Salt Toner
Black Salt 25-50g
Water to make 1l
If pH < 10, add 10g/l Sodium carbonate.

Attached is a phone snap of the two scrap slides I used for testing. The yellow-brown tone is visible in the pic. Will do more testing in the weekend.

[Edit: @moderators: hope it's ok to share film toning examples and experiences here.]

[Edit: @Ivo Stunga in case you don't have the chemicals for the rehalogenating bleach, you can skip the second development step in your reversal workflow and use the toner.]

Ivo Stunga · Jan 21, 2022

Awesome, thank you! Haven't seen an ORWO slide!

Looks like this thread is making an appointment for me to that industrial chemistry plant/wholesaler we have here in LV

Ivo Stunga · Jan 21, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
[Edit: @Ivo Stunga in case you don't have the chemicals for the rehalogenating bleach, you can skip the second development step in your reversal workflow and use the toner.]

Hmmmph, interesting and I'll test this out!
Do I understand correctly then that after re-exposure I can treat film directly in toner instead of second development, then proceed to fixing and image won't fix away, because silver halides have been converted/toned and is no longer soluble in fixer? And step 4 (2% Sodium sulfite bath) then is not needed?

Damn, am I in need of a darkroom teacher now? : D

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 21, 2022

Ivo Stunga said:
Hmmmph, interesting and I'll test this out!
Do I understand correctly then that after re-exposure I can treat film directly in toner instead of second development, then proceed to fixing and image won't fix away, because silver halides have been converted/toned and is no longer soluble in fixer? And step 4 (2% Sodium sulfite bath) then is not needed?

You can skip the re-exposure step as well if you're going to use toner in place of the second developer. Your process will look something like this:

1. First development
2. Stop bath and water rinse
3. Bleach and water rinse
4. Clearing bath and water rinse
5. Toning bath and water rinse
6. Fix and wash

Toning can be done in subdued light and you can tone by inspection till completion, at least the first time. Hope this is making sense.

Ivo Stunga · Jan 21, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
You can skip the re-exposure step as well if you're going to use toner in place of the second developer. Your process will look something like this:

1. First development
2. Stop bath and water rinse
3. Bleach and water rinse
4. Clearing bath and water rinse
5. Toning bath and water rinse
6. Fix and wash

Toning can be done in subdued light and you can tone by inspection till completion, at least the first time. Hope this is making sense.

Makes and will try when the roll is over - thanks

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 24, 2022

I scanned some slides that I had toned using Kala Namak toner as described in post #30. Here is how the sepia tone on the slides looks like.

This was an educative and fun experiment to do and thanks @nmp for opening up an interesting new avenue for sepia toning.

nmp · Jan 24, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I scanned some slides that I had toned using Kala Namak toner as described in post #30. Here is how the sepia tone on the slides looks like.

View attachment 296477

This was an educative and fun experiment to do and thanks @nmp for opening up an interesting new avenue for sepia toning.

That is a wonderful image. Is that from a panoramic camera or something? The brown/sepia tone suits that dusty Indian scene.

:Niranjan.

Ivo Stunga · Jan 25, 2022

Man, that's ART, thank you
Go figure - Double-X is currently in my camera, frame 3 and will be pushed 2 stops. I was amazed at the results I got yesterday first time reversing it without hypo.

Used as second developer - does the concentration of black salt determines the intensity of toning? Is it controllable?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 25, 2022

Ivo Stunga said:
Go figure - Double-X is currently in my camera, frame 3 and will be pushed 2 stops. I was amazed at the results I got yesterday first time reversing it without hypo.

Used as second developer - does the concentration of black salt determines the intensity of toning? Is it controllable?

Double X reverses well at 200, 400 and 800 albeit with some shadow loss at 800. I'm sure you'll be pleased with your results.

In my experiments I let the toning go to completion and that happened in a minute (or two). So it's fast. You can try diluting, say to 1:5, and see if you can slow down the process and thereby control the intensity of toning. You'll need to do one or two rounds of testing to find out if it is practically feasible. On the other hand, if you want to tone partially to get warm highlights only, then it is best you do this:
1. Follow your regular reversal processing workflow to get B&W slides.
2. Use a diluted Ferricyanide+Bromide bleach to partially bleach the slides. You can do this by inspection in subdued light.
3. Rinse in 2% Sodium sulfite solution to get rid of any residual Ferricyanide in the film.
4. Tone in Kala Namak toner. Depending on the level of bleaching done in step #2, the slides will have warm highlights and midtones.

Ivo Stunga · Jan 28, 2022

So I tried my hand at this - thank you @Raghu Kuvempunagar!

Here's how my tests went: first time rating this film @800 and second Double-X I've reversed:

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
In my experiments I let the toning go to completion and that happened in a minute (or two). So it's fast.

Hmmm, don't have PH indicators at hand, but in my case it took 30 minutes to completion with 30g of Kala Namak in 500ml dH2O! So I had to wait, but it got there! What I deduced: effect is a tad too strong so I must find a way to control the amount of toning. Or placement of toning.
Idea came: Reduced time in second developer should develop highlights first, then work down to midtones, shadows and blacks. Maybe if I redevelop for 1-2 minutes Instead of 6, It'll "block" highlights/midtones from toning by developing them, leaving only the rest susceptible for toner.
I had to check this out, so I reversed and toned Delta 100 @400 for somebody else today. Photographer has experienced some metering problems, but the selective toning went beautifully!

Reversal to Clear -> Wash, then:
Row 1 and 2: Re-exposed, then redeveloped for 1min in first developer (used as second) -> Toning for 30min -> Fix
Row 3: a slide from the attempt above + a row of re-exposed slides, developed for 2min in first developer (used as second) -> Toning for 30min -> Fix
Row 4: first strip to attempt toning with and to time it - straight toning after Clear, without re-exposure and redevelopment. Took 30min to complete -> Fix.
Why so long? PH issues?

My uneducated guess would be that the selective toning should work the other way around too: for neutral blacks-midtones one could possibly attempt to first tone for a fraction of the time and then redevelop in second developer to completion, then Fix.

Will try this out with my next film.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 28, 2022

@Ivo Stunga: Very interesting and encouraging results. Those cold winter scenes look endearingly warm after toning.

Ivo Stunga said:
Why so long? PH issues?

Possibly. You may want to add some Sodium carbonate to the toner and test. You can also try doubling the amount of salt in the toner.

Keep us posted on your experiments and findings.

Ivo Stunga · Jan 29, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Very interesting and encouraging results.

Thank you, I was surprised that this idea worked. Expected it, but pleasantly surprised nonetheless!

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Keep us posted on your experiments and findings

Will do! Currently I'm thinking Kentmere 400 to see what degree of toning could be beneficial to hide the weak density @1600

Could it be beneficial to split this topic, creating new one, like - Toning Slides?

Ivo Stunga · Jan 30, 2022

Here are couple of scans from the slides above:

EDIT: removed scans that showed the wrong color cast - massively different from what's projected.

Sorry for that, will do better.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 30, 2022

Ivo Stunga said:
Here are couple of scans from the slides above:

Aha! These are lovely! Congratulations!

nmp · Jan 30, 2022

Ivo Stunga said:
Here are couple of scans from the slides above..

Absolutely gorgeous.....great contrast and those shadow details are amazing. I love the tone.

So what are the before/after pictures?

Regarding starting a new thread, might not be a bad idea (not that I personally mind) - perhaps somewhere after Raghu's initial inquiry can be moved to a new thread, may be in one of the darkroom sections where there will be interest from more than just the alternative crowd. Perhaps @MattKing can chime in (and make it happen.)

Very cool stuff!

:Niranjan.

Ivo Stunga · Jan 30, 2022

Thanks guys - it's fun stuff!

nmp said:
So what are the before/after pictures?

It's what got scanned with with little adjustments in Silverfast. Namely -2 midtones and -2 shadows, double exposure option and some exposure boost to compensate for the base fog - rest left untouched, everything Auto off.
Posted to give an idea about what scanner saw and what got edited in Lightroom, as it'll inevitably look different than what's posted above on the light table.

pentaxuser · Jan 30, 2022

The big difference here, Ivo, is how much the highlights such as the white snow and the sky has turned pink. Is this something that only happens on slides or can the same effect be achieved on prints?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Ivo Stunga · Jan 30, 2022

Truth is - I have very little darkroom experience - slides don't require one, a bathroom will suffice. But putting one together is one of my current dreams, seeing how much I enjoy working with film. That said I can share my observations and thoughts.

Double-X reversed retained a lot of silver in highlights - similarly to another film: Scala 160 / Silvermax 100 that makes those highlights creamy - so there was silver there to be toned and the effect is reduced the more blown the highlights are (less dense/less silver).
I actually don't like highlights toned this heavily, so I'm glad that the partial toning worked by developing all the silver in highlights first, leaving only the rest susceptibe/convertible to toner.

How can this behavior be transferred to print is currently beyond me - as are prints But I guess that a reversed print could behave similarly - someone could try this out.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 30, 2022

Ivo Stunga said:
How can this behavior be transferred to print is currently beyond me - as are prints But I guess that a reversed print could behave similarly - someone could try this out.

Not sure if it has any application for salt prints, but Kala Namak works quite well as a nucleating agent for reversal processing of film. I tested it today on Kodak Double X film. Given that the nucleating agent idea works very well for reversal processing of photographic paper, I have tested with Thiourea and FSA, I don't see why Kala Namak will not work equally well.

Toning B&W Slides with Kala Namak

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