To pre-wash or not to pre-wash?

[koraks]

Eventually the developer goes very dark, maybe even black, and is heavily loaded with acutance dye, spectral sensitising dye, antihalation dye, and speed trimming dye.

But would it hurt, other than that it looks kind of nasty? As far as I can tell, the presence of these dyes has no detrimental effect on development.

On the other hand, I've seen many of your photos (scans of prints) over the years on LFPF, and given their top-notch quality, any argument given against your methods would be pretty much moot IMO!

 

[zanxion72]

For one shot solutions

There is a strong reason for pre-washing film if the developer used is replenished rather than one shot.

I can develop two rolls of 120 film in 1 litre of Xtol. At the end of development I replenish at the rate of 90ml per film.
This means that 82% of the original developer plus 18% of new developer goes back into the 1 litre stock bottle.
It also means 82% of all the dye that those two rolls of film gave off is now in my 1 litre stock bottle.
The next two rolls will also leave 82% of their dye in my 1 litre stock bottle; and so on.
The dye accumulates much faster than the replenishment rate can take it out.
Eventually the developer goes very dark, maybe even black, and is heavily loaded with acutance dye, spectral sensitising dye, antihalation dye, and speed trimming dye.

Pre-washing film avoids this nasty conclusion for developers used and replenished for a long time. My Xtol has been in continuous use since 2007 and it is still only the colour of weak tea. I always pre-wash.

Indeed! For re-usable solutions prewashing makes a big deal. It takes out most of the anti-halo dye and it keeps the developer cleaner. In several cases you get cleaner negatives too. Some brands leave a reddish-brown hint of colour on the negative at the end, that you cannot get rid of even with longer than usual washing. Pre-washing helps by quite a bit with it.

 

[foc]

I don't:

• Pre wash.
• Tap the dev tank.
• Invert agitate.
• Use a proprietary stop bath.

I do:

• Shoot at box speed
• Use water as a stop bath.
• I swirl agitate.
• Use a squeegee.

Am I better than anyone else? No.
Does it make one bit of difference to my images? Probably not.
Why do I do it? Because that the way I am.
In other words, do what suits you best.

 

[Sirius Glass]

According to a documentation from JOBO, you can either do a five minuts pre-rinse or not do it at all, as pre-rinse less than five minutes MAY cause uneven development. You can find the links to the document below.

I agree with above that this is not definite. Any suggesting you find may serve only as a starting point for your own trial. But in my experience, if you are satisfied with unpre-rinsed film, there are little good reasons for you to start.

Links: http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/introduction_to_processing.pdf. Relevent information can be found under Black and White Photo Processing in Depth.

PE said he always pre-washed. Color and B&W.
Good enough for me.

none other than getting everything p to the same temperature.

Prewetting gets the film and the chemicals to the same temperature and gets even wetting to the emulsion so that the chemicals can evenly penetrate.

I:

• Shoot at box speed
• Use water as a stop bath
• Use a Jobo processor
  
• I use PhotoFlo mixed as directed
• Use a squeegee on paper, never on negatives

 

[Mark Crabtree]

For one shot solutions


Indeed! For re-usable solutions prewashing makes a big deal. It takes out most of the anti-halo dye and it keeps the developer cleaner. In several cases you get cleaner negatives too. Some brands leave a reddish-brown hint of colour on the negative at the end, that you cannot get rid of even with longer than usual washing. Pre-washing helps by quite a bit with it.

A prewet also slightly dilutes reused and replenished solutions over time, so something to keep in mind.

 

[zanxion72]

A prewet also slightly dilutes reused and replenished solutions over time, so something to keep in mind.

Yes, indeed! For consistent results I compensate over time when I get the slightest feel that the replenished developer starts to get less active.

 

[brianentz]

Seems the best answer is - read the manufacturers instructions and see what they recommend. Good idea.

 

[gone]

If you think about it for a second, it's probably a good reason to pre wash your film. Having the film already wet and having been exposed to "wetness" before the chemicals hit it is surely a good idea.

Having said that, I've never pre washed any film and probably never will. The negs look fine w/o it. Pre wash seems like an extra, unnecessary step.

 

[Vaughn]

Seems the best answer is - read the manufacturers instructions and see what they recommend. Good idea.

But don't forget the manufacturer of the equipment instructions also. They have done the testing with their equipment that the film manufacturer might not have done.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Seems the best answer is - read the manufacturers instructions and see what they recommend. Good idea.

Well, there goes the whole raison d'être of photrio. Might as well unsubscribe ...

 

[mshchem]

I developed 2 rolls of Portra last weekend, didn't pre wet, usually do. No apocalypse, YET! I'm still waiting!!!

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I did a short presoak -2 minutes- for all 35mm and medium format rolls all my life, just to have tank, reel and film in perfect temperature before pouring developer in. I never had uneven development, not a single time.
Some time ago (one year?) I forgot presoaking, and when I saw the developed wet film, I felt it was better, sharper, crisper without the presoak, but it was an instant impression, not a serious test.
Now I never presoak... Where I develop -first floor in my house- temperature is surprisingly stable (no seasons here) so most days it's 21 celsius, and very few days it's 20 or 22: I have my own times for those three cases: developing at ambient temperature without presoaking is what I've liked the most.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Call me stupid or mad (or a crazy European), but I prewash for 10 min. (yes ten) on a rollerbase at exactly the same temperature as the developer, wether the exposure is at box speed or any other ASA, whatever film/developer type.
I brew my own developer(-s) and using a homemade buffered stop bath, a neutral-to-alkalic (C-41) two bath fixer, KHCA and Sistan.
I add about 1 min to the dev. time to compensate for the water sucked up in the emulsion.

The anti halo layer colour coming out when pouring the pre wash water is convincing me that I am doing good.

When I alter this, things seem to go wrong, don't ask me why...

 

[BradS]

Pre-wash? yes, no, maybe. It really doesn't matter. Do what feels good to you and be happy.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

precisely!

 

[Vaughn]

Call me stupid or mad (or a crazy European), but I prewash for 10 min. (yes ten) on a rollerbase ...

Then let us be mad together, even tho I am a Left-coast Yank! I pre-wet for about ten minutes...without rushing, gives me time to mix Parts A and B of my PyrocatHD together at temperature, pour out the colorful water, and then pour the nice fresh developer into the turning drum. Sweet!

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Ah, finally, a brother in the arms!

 

[Vaughn]

A confession. I have even on occasion...pause for effect...changed the pre-wash water!
...winter, very cold room, hands around a warm mug of tea, and another 10 minutes to re-caffeinate.

 

[cliveh]

Why would anyone in there right mind pre-wash? Unless the film is dirty.

 

[MattKing]

Why would anyone in there right mind pre-wash? Unless the film is dirty.

Because it has consistently worked well for many of us - in some cases for decades.
And as Simon Galley once posted, the reason that Ilford describe it as not recommended, rather than recommended against, is because they consider it harmless, but not necessary.

 

[foc]

because they consider it harmless, but not necessary.

That about sums it all up.
Or to put it another way, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[BrianShaw]

That about sums it all up.
Or to put it another way, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

It possible also has to do with the a consistency issue - that Ilford recommended processing data was without pre-wetting and the recommendations may be different with pre-wetting. If one can figure out the difference, then it really does seem to be a d if you do; d if you don't!

 

[laingsoft]

I use a tempering bath for C41, but for black and white I usually don't bother. I also usually do all my black and white developing at room temperature though, so I'm a bit of a heathen.

 

[Dusty Negative]

...far more important things to worry about when developing film like is there enough beer in the fridge.

But, what was the TEMPERATURE of the beer when you removed it from storage? And, did you ensure it reached ambient temperature before opening??

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I pre-wet for about ten minutes...without rushing,

What about agitation during prewash? Full stand or semistand or Kodak agitation or continuous agitation?