The ultimate film washing method

Philippe-Georges · Jan 11, 2022

Kino said:
Bill Troop and Steve Anchell state in the "Film Developing Cookbook" that the "Ilford method" of film washing is essentially is correct IF you add a 5 minute waiting period between tank fill/inversion and the next tank/fill.

Take it for what it is worth; I used the method for years without the 5 minute wait between tank refill and agitation with wash water and my negatives have been fine, but that is up to you.

Would a rather rigorous continuous agitation make a difference if when applying the Ilford method?
My way of doing is: changing the water (at developer temperature) each two min. for five times agitated on a motorised roller base, then a 2 min. in KRHC also on that roller base, and ending in water plus a few drops of Agepon.

MattKing · Jan 11, 2022

Washing film is more a diffusion process than a mechanical removal process. The 5 minute wait gives the fixer residue time to diffuse out of the gelatin into the surrounding water.
And the Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent (or other washaid) is best used early - after a 2-5 minute rinse - rather than later, because it has the effect of converting the fixer residue into a more water soluble chemical.

Philippe-Georges · Jan 11, 2022

MattKing said:
Washing film is more a diffusion process than a mechanical removal process. The 5 minute wait gives the fixer residue time to diffuse out of the gelatin into the surrounding water.
And the Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent (or other washaid) is best used early - after a 2-5 minute rinse - rather than later, because it has the effect of converting the fixer residue into a more water soluble chemical.

Yes, I mus have formulated my writing wrongly, of corse the KRHC coms before the washing and after a 2 min. rinse.
And from now on, I will add a 5 min. wait.

radiant · Jan 11, 2022

MattKing said:
Washing film is more a diffusion process than a mechanical removal process. The 5 minute wait gives the fixer residue time to diffuse out of the gelatin into the surrounding water.
And the Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent (or other washaid) is best used early - after a 2-5 minute rinse - rather than later, because it has the effect of converting the fixer residue into a more water soluble chemical.

Like paper washing is. But isn't film washing similar to RC paper washing which is done with running water?

About washaid/hypo clearing: is there still too much fixer after first rinse or why it should be used after 2-5 minutes rinse?

tokam · Jan 11, 2022

Film and RC paper only have a thin layer of emulsion that has to be washed clean of processing chemicals. FB papers soak up the dev and fixer into the paper structure which is why the use of a hypo clearing agent followed by extensive washing is necessary. The emulsion layer itself is very porous and can be washed quickly compared to the FB paper substrate.

I use the Ilford method x 2.5. That is more inversions and more changes of water. I normally leave each change of water in the tank for a minute or so before draining. I'm sure a lot of people extend the Ilford recommended wash method with no harm done.

PS. Wetting agent does not leave dirt or chalky deposits on film. These deposits may come from your water supply or perhaps your fixer is too old and various sulphur compounds are precipitating out. This can happen with unused fixer concentrate straight out of the bottle. I process with tap water that has been run through a paper coffee filter. The only foreign object matter that I get on my negs would be airborn dust particles. They are as inevitable as death and taxes.

radiant · Jan 11, 2022

tokam said:
Wetting agent does not leave dirt or chalky deposits on film.

Mine does. Horrible large areas of "dirt", dunno what it is. I tried both with or without wetting agent on distilled water and the difference was massive. I've been using this one: https://www.nordfoto.de/Analoge-Fot...tting-Agent-aehnlich-Agepon-120-ml::9734.html - mixed 7ml to 1500ml of water. That is way too much.

tokam · Jan 11, 2022

Ouch, that doesn't seem right. I wonder if your wetting agent is reacting with minerals in your water to produce some precipitates. I would have thought that wetting agents would be relatively inert and not react with the wash water. I have only used Kodak wetting agent although there are other good ones made by Ilford etc.

The Kodak instructions call for a dilution of 1+ 200 which is 5 ml wetting agent in 1 litre of water. Similar to your instructions. Waaaay too much.

Most internet pundits recommend 1 to 2 drops per 500 ml of final wash water. Google says approx 20 drops per ml, (water only?), so the Kodak instructions indicate dilution of up to 100 drops in 1 litre of water or 50 drops in 500 ml of final wash water. This is over 20 times the amount of wetting agent that I would use. The wash water must be foaming up like a sink full of dishes ready for washing.

You want to see minimal bubbles in the final rinse with wetting agent. If these bubbles get transferred to the negatives when being hung up to dry then this may be where your chalky deposits are coming from.
It's a now fairly discredited practise but people used to use a squeegee to remove excess liquid from film when hanging up. Perhaps some wetting agent manufacturers assume that people are still doing this and the strong concentration of wetting agent may be less of a problem. I have never mixed wetting agent to manufacturers concentrations. I used to use maybe 5 or 6 drops but when I was informed that minimal bubbles in the final wash was desirable I reduced my usage. In over 40 years I have only bought 3 bottles of wetting agent and one of those bottles was lost in a house move when it was only half used.

MattKing · Jan 11, 2022

tokam said:
The Kodak instructions call for a dilution of 1+ 200 which is 5 ml wetting agent in 1 litre of water. Similar to your instructions. Waaaay too much.

Works great for me - but I add some alcohol. In general, it depends on your water.

tokam said:
Google says approx 20 drops per ml, (water only?),

I would question this!
"the size of a drop can vary considerably depending on the viscosity and specific gravity of the fluid, as well as the size and shape of the vessel from which it is poured."

Sirius Glass · Jan 11, 2022

MattKing said:
Works great for me - but I add some alcohol. In general, it depends on your water.

I would question this!
"the size of a drop can vary considerably depending on the viscosity and specific gravity of the fluid, as well as the size and shape of the vessel from which it is poured."

Are you adding alcohol to anything or anyone else? <<wink wink>> <<nudge nudge>>

tokam · Jan 11, 2022

MattKing said:
Works great for me - but I add some alcohol. In general, it depends on your water.

I would question this!
"the size of a drop can vary considerably depending on the viscosity and specific gravity of the fluid, as well as the size and shape of the vessel from which it is poured."

Hi Matt, I agree with you entirely. Could you comment on how much frothing you get at 1+ 200 dilution and do these bubbles remain on the film when you hang up to dry?

Sirius Glass · Jan 11, 2022

tokam said:
Hi Matt, I agree with you entirely. Could you comment on how much frothing you get at 1+ 200 dilution and do these bubbles remain on the film when you hang up to dry?

At 1+200 dilution I do not get bubbles that remain, but it will depend on your water.

MattKing · Jan 11, 2022

tokam said:
Hi Matt, I agree with you entirely. Could you comment on how much frothing you get at 1+ 200 dilution and do these bubbles remain on the film when you hang up to dry?

Whatever frothing I might get has subsided by the time I put film into it.
I usually mix up the Photo-flo while the film is in the developer.
Sometimes it ends up being delayed until the film is in the first fixer (I use two baths).
Here is what I do with Photo-flo:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photo-flo-stock-solution.396/

brian steinberger · Jan 11, 2022

I developed two 120 rolls tonight and wanted to show how I hang my film on an angle to dry. I would recommend the Paterson film clips with the pins that hold the film very secure. I hang mine from a line and then secure them to a wood holder that uses rubber bands attached to screws and also a slot to hold the bottom film clip from twisting the film back and forth. The pictures will hopefully show it better than I can explain it! Hope this helps some folks looking to try this method. It solved all my problems.

radiant · Jan 12, 2022

tokam said:
Most internet pundits recommend 1 to 2 drops per 500 ml of final wash water. Google says approx 20 drops per ml, (water only?), so the Kodak instructions indicate dilution of up to 100 drops in 1 litre of water or 50 drops in 500 ml of final wash water. This is over 20 times the amount of wetting agent that I would use. The wash water must be foaming up like a sink full of dishes ready for washing.

Great analysis. And yes I do get foaming/frothing with 1+200 mixture. Not like in the dishes but maybe half of it.

2 drops per ml would mean 1/10 ml per 500 ml, or in my case ~1/2 ml to 1500 ml of water. As the pure distilled water worked so well alone - it supports this theory that wetting agent should be added in very very minimal amount.

Thanks for showing that to use Brian! I'm now mostly using 36 shot 135 film, so I would need some kind of anchor on the floor. Those clips with sharp teeth are of course needed.

BTW: I bought some isopropyl alcohol and tried to clean up dirty negatives with that. Doesn't work at all. It probably doesn't hit to chalk/dirt whatsoever at all.

MattKing · Jan 12, 2022

If you use Kodak Photo-flo at much lower than the recommended dilution, water on the film won't sheet off as it dries.
It is a non-trivial thing to essentially defeat the effects of surface tension.

radiant · Jan 12, 2022

MattKing said:
If you use Kodak Photo-flo at much lower than the recommended dilution, water on the film won't sheet off as it dries.
It is a non-trivial thing to essentially defeat the effects of surface tension.

I've proven that if I use it at recommended dilution, the film looks like it has been in sevage water

I understand the purpose of it but how little is enough to cause surface tension effect? I will try that out.

With distilled water I got only small drop marks on the film - which of course I would like to get rid of.

MattKing · Jan 12, 2022

vedostuu said:
I've proven that if I use it at recommended dilution, the film looks like it has been in sevage water

There must be other factors involved then.
An anecdote:
Friends of mine have a film recorder that they were seeking to calibrate with black and white film. That involved a lot of densitometer readings and long distance communications with a consultant. They were somewhat frustrated with some of the results, because they were being skewed by something else on the negatives.
As it turns out they were using a less than accurate dilution of Photo-flo.
I shared with them the method that I posted a link to above, which has the advantage of both adding a small amount of alcohol to speed even drying, as well as ensuring accurate and repeatable dilution to the target amount. When they switched to that method, the negatives ended up much "cleaner" and their calibration problems went away.

tokam · Jan 12, 2022

I'm going to develop a film tonight and I will make up the wetting agent solution separately as Kodak Photoflo 1+200, 2.5 ml + 500 ml filtered water. I don't have any Isopropanol. I will mix the solution separately and allow it to settle before use.

As an aside I am also going to measure how many drops per ml of Photoflo. I have a 2.5 ml half teaspoon measure and I will drip Photoflo into it and count drops until full. Will give a good idea of the different concentrations of Photoflo we are discussing. Will get back to you.

Philippe-Georges · Jan 12, 2022

Does anyone use SISTAN, or alike, as final bath?
I do...

radiant · Jan 12, 2022

tokam said:
I'm going to develop a film tonight and I will make up the wetting agent solution separately as Kodak Photoflo 1+200, 2.5 ml + 500 ml filtered water. I don't have any Isopropanol. I will mix the solution separately and allow it to settle before use.
As an aside I am also going to measure how many drops per ml of Photoflo. I have a 2.5 ml half teaspoon measure and I will drip Photoflo into it and count drops until full. Will give a good idea of the different concentrations of Photoflo we are discussing. Will get back to you.

Yes. Now we are at the core of good. Please share as you know.

BTW: has anyone experiences from final wash on distilled water with/without wetting agent?

Ivo Stunga · Jan 12, 2022

vedostuu said:
BTW: has anyone experiences from final wash on distilled water with/without wetting agent?

I'll try that the next time around and report my findings against 10ml of Mirasol 2000 Antistatic (man, I love the retro vibes with that 2k) in 1l of dH2O that has already seen some films in it - I use this washing bath for ~10 films.

brian steinberger · Jan 12, 2022

vedostuu said:
BTW: has anyone experiences from final wash on distilled water with/without wetting agent?

I don’t recommend just distilled water. I’ve been there. Differential drying marks are the problem with this method.

I suggest you read my thread on this same subject.

Here is the link.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/drying-marks-with-ilford-120-fp4-and-hp5.67121/

radiant · Jan 12, 2022

brian steinberger said:
I don’t recommend just distilled water. I’ve been there. Differential drying marks are the problem with this method.

I suggest you read my thread on this same subject.

Here is the link.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/drying-marks-with-ilford-120-fp4-and-hp5.67121/

You suggested pure distilled water here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...ford-120-fp4-and-hp5.67121/page-4#post-948539 - why were you getting perfect negs?

For others who do not want to read that thread through, here is TL;DR: hang the film in angle for drying. (I need to try this too)

brian steinberger · Jan 12, 2022

Keep reading the thread all the way to completion.

it is ironic that the first reply to that thread is to hang the film on an angle which is what I had to do in the end. I think I was just trying to avoid thinking of how to engineer that.

But of course I still had to navigate the not too much, not too little photo flo slope and of course no photo flo can result in differential drying marks at the bottom of the film. The final rinse water needs photo flo to keep drops from forming. The angle helps get the water off all the frames evenly so what’s left doesn’t end up on the bottom few frames and cause problems.

radiant · Jan 12, 2022

I think we are about to find The Ultimate Film Washing Method:
- use small amount of photoflo (no bubbles, foam!) with distilled water
- hang in angle to dry

The ultimate film washing method

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