The New Leitz - Wetzlar Leica M6 (and the dreaded film scratching issue)

[GLS]

The thing that's confusing to me is: if it's the emulsion layer being scratched surely the culprit doing the scratching can't be on the pressure plate itself? Wouldn't it have to be a tiny burr or something on the film gate, or similar?

 

[koraks]

if it's the emulsion layer being scratched

So maybe it's the other side being scratched. That's what I'd expect since the scratches show up white, not black. Emulsion scratches tend to show up black on prints or scans.

 

[GLS]

So maybe it's the other side being scratched. That's what I'd expect since the scratches show up white, not black. Emulsion scratches tend to show up black on prints or scans.

Ah yes, of course. Sorry, wasn't thinking clearly when I posted that; coffee levels must have been dangerously low.

 

[Huss]

I had the same problems with the pressure plate scratching the negative of my new MP in 2019. Leica has replaced the pressure plate and my MP works since then flawlessly.

Interestingly I was searching several times with the magnifier the entire surface of the pressure plate for the defect but I couldn’t find something

Indeed this problem did not suddenly appear with the new M6, but has affected the occasional MP and M-A. So Leica has been aware about this for a long time now but has not bothered to address it correctly for a couple of unfortunate reasons:
1. Many Leica owners do not actually use their cameras. They buy them because it is a thing to have.
2. Many Leica owners are not experienced in film photography and a Leica literally is their first experience in that world. They bought one because they now have the money and it is cool. But because they are not experienced with film, either do not notice the scratches, or think that is a part of the “film look”.
On the l-forum one digital user chimed in and said his buddy uses a film M and it is normal for film images to have scratches all over them!

When Leica’s current base is that, there is no incentive to tighten up quality and/or improve the product. Cheaper to just deal w the pains in the a$$es who actually use the cameras for real on a case by case basis.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I have shot all kinds of cheap and expansive cameras. Different kinds and brands. Even plastic toy point and shoots. Never have I experienced cameras scratching films.
I dont know if this is just my experience but I doubt it happens often or maybe at all.

FSU cameras weren't cheap for us in USSR. And I never used expensive filmy cameras. Never had need, urge for it. Even my film Ms were well under 1K$.

Nor my post was about how rare scratching film is. It was about how easy it is to fix instead of whining on ten pages.

 

[Huss]

To the mods - is it possible to change or include M6 film scratching in this thread title? It will make it much easier to find in the future when someone else is searching for this issue.

 

[Huss]

FSU cameras weren't cheap for us in USSR. And I never used expensive filmy cameras. Never had need, urge for it. Even my film Ms were well under 1K$.

Nor my post was about how rare scratching film is. It was about how easy it is to fix instead of whining on ten pages.

None of my FSU rf cameras scratched film.

This thread is not about whining. When someone pays a lot of money for a new camera and it is defective, it would be nuts to do something to it while it is under warranty. A warranty that is meant to cover that issue.

If I bought a used M that scratches film - of course I would fix it myself.

 

[4season]

I cannot image laying out $5500 for a new film camera let alone going after the pressure plate (of all things) with sand paper on a brand new $5500 film camera! It is completely insane!

You need to expand your imagination!

Kidding aside, I wish new Leica M products offered the same level of out-of-box perfection as Canon, but IME, they are actually #1 most likely to need some issue sorted out. And occasionally, factory service simply flails away at things repeatedly. I'm confident of my own mechanical abilities to fix such problems without voiding the warranty, but as they say, YMMV.

My hunch is that the reason old QC problems keep cropping up periodically is because old-fashioned manufacturing techniques are subject to them. Is Leica still milling pressure plates from a plate of aluminum? Everyone else (including Zenit!) switched to metal stampings long ago, perhaps for reasons besides cheapness. And yet, it's the same old-fashioned approach which gives the system it's appeal.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Can you imagine if South Park did an episode on this latest Leica kerfuffle?

There would be more blue language.

 

[koraks]

To the mods - is it possible to change or include M6 film scratching in this thread title?

Done.
Btw, Google would find it anyway, as will the on-site search engine, even without a thread title change.

 

[Huss]

So now the Leica ambassador has realized that his new M6 also scratches film - because he posted new scans from a lab that show that - but the defense is it doesn't matter because no-one would notice it.

I guess if that was the case, then that whole thread doesn't actually exist. It was all a dream...

 

[Pieter12]

So now the Leica ambassador has realized that his new M6 also scratches film - because he posted new scans from a lab that show that - but the defense is it doesn't matter because no-one would notice it.

I guess if that was the case, then that whole thread doesn't actually exist. It was all a dream...

For those who end up with a digital file as the final product, whether to post or print, the scratches are a minor annoyance since they probably don't show up on social media posts or they can be carefully cleaned up in Photoshop for larger files or printing. However, what is the point of buying a top-class analog camera if you're not going to print in the darkroom? Leica makes some very respectable digital cameras today.

 

[NB23]

I had the same problems with the pressure plate scratching the negative of my new MP in 2019. Leica has replaced the pressure plate and my MP works since then flawlessly.

Interestingly I was searching several times with the magnifier the entire surface of the pressure plate for the defect but I couldn’t find something

Becauses you were pressing on the door while winding.
This also explain why a M6 sometimes scratches the film, and sometimes doesn’t. The problem isn’t evrn the plate... and it’s so easily fixable. Like wtf y’all.

 

[dutchsteammachine]

So now the Leica ambassador has realized that his new M6 also scratches film - because he posted new scans from a lab that show that - but the defense is it doesn't matter because no-one would notice it.

I guess if that was the case, then that whole thread doesn't actually exist. It was all a dream...

What matters is that a 5000 dollar brand new camera scratches film more than a russian Ilford Ikonta clone from the 50s that I found at the thriftstore.

 

[faberryman]

However, what is the point of buying a top-class analog camera if you're not going to print in the darkroom?

As I understand it, film forces you to slow down, to shoot more mindfully, to carefully compose your images, and to think more before you shoot. If you shoot digital, it's all mindless spray and pray with your eyes closed, not to mention digital is not real photography because it doesn't involve bitumen of Judea.

 

[BradS]

So now the Leica ambassador has realized that his new M6 also scratches film - because he posted new scans from a lab that show that - but the defense is it doesn't matter because no-one would notice it.

Absolutely unbelievable! It's double-plus good.

I keep thinking....Huss probably exposes more film in an average weekend walkabout than most of these Leica fan boys do in a year. Who's opinion on the matter is more valuable? That of the "Brand Ambassador" marketing shill , or an actual photographer?

 

[MattKing]

Absolutely unbelievable! It's double-plus good.

I keep thinking....Huss probably exposes more film in an average weekend walkabout than most of these Leica fan boys do in a year. Who's opinion on the matter is more valuable? That of the "Brand Ambassador" marketing shill , or an actual photographer?

Valuable to whom?

 

[snusmumriken]

It doesn't look like the meter in his M6 works very well either.

I went to his website to check out his photos. He has his galleries set up by which Leica lens he used to take the photo.

Jonathan Slack Photography

www.slack.co.uk

Thanks for linking to that. There’s clearly far to respect than was apparent from his M6 review.

 

[BradS]

Valuable to whom?

Good point. I always forget about those who are obsessed with fondling the brass. Lots of folks buy a Leica only to use it as a fashion accessory. Presumably, these folks have a very strong interest in the brand retaining all of its luxury status and therefore would strongly downplay and discredit anything that detracts from that status of their expensive luxury fashion accessory.

 

[Pieter12]

As I understand it, film forces you to slow down, to shoot more mindfully, to carefully compose your images, and to think more before you shoot. If you shoot digital, it's all mindless spray and pray with your eyes closed, not to mention digital is not real photography because it doesn't involve bitumen of Judea.

You can choose to shoot digital the same as film. Just because you’re at an all you eat buffet, it doesn’t mean you have to gorge yourself. No need to act like Mr Creosote.

 

[MattKing]

Good point. Lots of folks a Leica only to use it as a fashion accessory. Presumably, these folks have a very high vested interest in the brand retaining all of its exclusive, luxury status and therefore would strongly downplay and attempt to discredit anything that detracts from that status of their expensive luxury fashion accessory.

While this is an accurate description of many of the potential customers, I think there are also customers who just like using expensive things that seem to be exceptionally well made.
Note that I use the word "seem".
A bad pressure plate and ASA setting dial can ruin the usability - for a lot of us - of a camera that is otherwise a pleasure to use.
As Huss has observed, it isn't really those problems that are the concern, it is how poorly they are being dealt with.

 

[Cubao]

Becauses you were pressing on the door while winding

And I stopped doing that after Leica has replaced the plate? How could I forget it? Thanks for this genius hint

 

[Oldwino]

As I understand it, film forces you to slow down, to shoot more mindfully, to carefully compose your images, and to think more before you shoot. If you shoot digital, it's all mindless spray and pray with your eyes closed, not to mention digital is not real photography because it doesn't involve bitumen of Judea.

Thanks. Now I know.

 

[BradS]

While this is an accurate description of many of the potential customers, I think there are also customers who just like using expensive things that seem to be exceptionally well made.
Note that I use the word "seem".
A bad pressure plate and ASA setting dial can ruin the usability - for a lot of us - of a camera that is otherwise a pleasure to use.
As Huss has observed, it isn't really those problems that are the concern, it is how poorly they are being dealt with.

Yes, Leica have completely botched the customer service. Which is, in-and-of-itself shockingly contrary to their raison d'être. That is of course, on top of the shocking actual poor quality product from a company that exclaims "Simply the Finest". Let's not loose sight of the fact that scratching film is a catastrophic failure. The camera is useless. They might as well just ship it without a shutter too. ...and this is a camera that retails for over $5000 !!! ...and this debacle is brought to us by the company that in-your-face...no....wait....I feel like my head is about to explode...I'm hitting the pause button. I have to step away from the machine and take a walk.

 

[Huss]

Good point. I always forget about those who are obsessed with fondling the brass. Lots of folks buy a Leica only to use it as a fashion accessory. Presumably, these folks have a very strong interest in the brand retaining all of its luxury status and therefore would strongly downplay and attempt to discredit anything that detracts from that status of their expensive luxury fashion accessory.

It‘s why Leica made the pre-worn already brassed edition M. So it’s customers do not have to use the camera , but it looks like they did.


https://leica-camera.com/en-US/Company/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/2015/Press-Release-Special-limited-edition-LEICA-M-P-‘CORRESPONDENT’-SET-CREATED-BY-LENNY-KRAVITZ-FOR-KRAVITZ-DESIGN