The Fish Gelatin process - first CMYK prints

[bernard_L]

My second fish gelatin print:

View attachment 399210

Summer Memories​

The technical discussion is above my head.
But. While this image definitely does not have true colors, I like them a lot. Something between Technicolor and soviet-era color magazines.
Congratulations. Hope you can reproduce the exact process leading to this.

 

[PGum]

Would a FAC substitute like the one used in Mike Ware's Simple Cyanotype be useful in processes such as this? The substitute has some Ammonium Nitrate in it though.

I believe I did apply Ware’s SC formula to FG/CHIBA as I did make some up a few years back, but no notes. The difference must not have been too great however! It might be different for you as all things alt often are!

 

[joho]

Color wise my trials more classic with out PS

Here is work experimental, from an exhibition MHDEN AGAN it is PS-[free] based on a monotype - Lithographic [type] process.
1a is a bromo-oil
1aa based on a monotype - Lithographic [type] process

ooops typo...on photo [exhibition]

 

[Carnie Bob]

Bob, wouldn't the dichromate in the gum layer harm the silver? Are you going to gold tone the POP print before the gum layer?

thanks for this observation - at this point I have had no issues with the AD harming the Pd layer or Cyanotype layer, I will watch out for this possible problem, are you suggesting that
the AD would hurt, I have not done this yet btw.
I have seen hand coloured with pigment over salt prints which are magnificant, but not sure how a silver layer on paper will react to the AD component in my multiple gum overs.
I can do commercial bw matt print and try putting gum over top , this would be critical for me to understand before I go down the wormhole of gum over silver.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

thanks for this observation - at this point I have had no issues with the AD harming the Pd layer or Cyanotype layer, I will watch out for this possible problem, are you suggesting that
the AD would hurt, I have not done this yet btw.
I have seen hand coloured with pigment over salt prints which are magnificant, but not sure how a silver layer on paper will react to the AD component in my multiple gum overs.
I can do commercial bw matt print and try putting gum over top , this would be critical for me to understand before I go down the wormhole of gum over silver.

Bob, Dichromate bleach is widely used in B&W reversal processing to remove all the metallic silver after the first development, something I am very familiar with. Dichromate is a strong oxidising agent and it oxidises metallic silver to soluble silver salt in acidic media. Hence, I was curious to know if dichromate in the gum layer wouldn't eat up some of the silver in the POP layer potentially in the highlights and if that is OK. Gold toning will obviously make the print more resistant to oxidation by Dichromate.

 

[joho]

just a note Dichromate is not a bleach , it turns the black silver into charged negative ions - so one add or remove to reorder the developed silver compound.
as in to intensify development...

 

[koraks]

it turns the black silver into charged negative ions

That'd be something. Negative silver ions. I figure you could pretty well get a Nobel prize for that.
But more to the point - you're right that dichromate requires a strong acid in order to act as a bleach. We generally use hydrochloric acid to make a rehalogenating bleach (for intensification) or sulfuric acid to make a stripping bleach (no redevelopment possible).

I just did a very quick and small test, and the acidity of an aged gum bichromate solution is not enough to make dichromate into a silver bleach. A drop of 1% dichromate solution mixed with a drop of aged gum does nothing to a strip of developed silver film. I see no bleach action after a few minutes. So I would expect that gum over silver gelatin should work without bleaching the silver image.

 

[Dan Pavel]

But. While this image definitely does not have true colors, I like them a lot. Something between Technicolor and soviet-era color magazines.
Congratulations. Hope you can reproduce the exact process leading to this.

Color wise my trials more classic with out PS

How colors are reproduced is an interesting discussion. Due to the specific pigments and the particularities of the process I don't think that a perfect color reproduction is possible. However, if the process is carefully respected a certain intended look could be obtained with reasonable repeatability.
Here are screen captures of the intended image and of scans of the prints:

 

[bernard_L]

For the first image, the print is remarkably (for such a custom process) similar to the source; maybe moire saturated colors.
For the second, the print has a character of its own: desaturated colors for the building, and a cyan shift for sea+sky; these two give it (IMO) its characteristic period look.

Curious to know how long it takes you to produce one print, not counting the initial R&D of the process.

 

[Carnie Bob]

That'd be something. Negative silver ions. I figure you could pretty well get a Nobel prize for that.
But more to the point - you're right that dichromate requires a strong acid in order to act as a bleach. We generally use hydrochloric acid to make a rehalogenating bleach (for intensification) or sulfuric acid to make a stripping bleach (no redevelopment possible).

I just did a very quick and small test, and the acidity of an aged gum bichromate solution is not enough to make dichromate into a silver bleach. A drop of 1% dichromate solution mixed with a drop of aged gum does nothing to a strip of developed silver film. I see no bleach action after a few minutes. So I would expect that gum over silver gelatin should work without bleaching the silver image.

Interesting ,

 

[Carnie Bob]

How colors are reproduced is an interesting discussion. Due to the specific pigments and the particularities of the process I don't think that a perfect color reproduction is possible. However, if the process is carefully respected a certain intended look could be obtained with reasonable repeatability.
Here are screen captures of the intended image and of scans of the prints:

View attachment 399442 View attachment 399441

You are getting the same kind of results that I. see with gum over palladium and gum over cyanotype.

 

[Dan Pavel]

Curious to know how long it takes you to produce one print, not counting the initial R&D of the process.

It goes completely into water and developing solutions 9 times for 15-40 min. and it must completely dry after each immersion. Add to this 11 wet layers of emulsions that must, each of them, dry. Then add processing times, exposures times, time to make the emulsions and apply them and the result is a quite long time.
The paper must support such an aggression and therefore a thicker paper is used, with a longer drying time.

If I am lucky and everything goes as intended it takes me about a week to complete 1 print.

 

[Dan Pavel]

Someone on flickr have just offered to purchase the "Summer Memories" print. I make my prints out of pure passion and give them as presents to family and friends. I have no idea what would be a fair price to ask. I would be very grateful if you could advise me.

 

[koraks]

I have no idea what would be a fair price to ask.

If I am lucky and everything goes as intended it takes me about a week to complete 1 print.

Let's assume a 40-hour work week. Pick your hourly rate. Then add the R&D investment. Then add another margin for the sheer artistic value of a hand-crafted item. So north of $1k.

 

[Dan Pavel]

Thanks Koraks!

 

[koraks]

You're welcome. It's of course arbitrary, but what I wanted to do here is (1) create a first data point you could take into consideration and (2) hopefully stimulate you to avoid the trap of too much modesty. In reality, a cost-based approach to pricing is tricky and I doubt it really makes sense for art, so there's a massive pitfall there to begin with. If you value art on the basis of factorial cost, arguably you're not actually valuing it but in fact treating it as a commodity. So there's in my view a rather fundamental issue underlying your question - i.e. how you view your own work: as a craft, or as art. In case of the latter, the price setting may have to be based on entirely different lines of reasoning than my simplistic approach of "cost price plus". You may have to look instead at what other, comparable (go break your teeth on that one!) works of art sell for, what your standing as an artist are, how this particular work fits in your oeuvre, how that oeuvre has developed and is anticipated to develop, etc. etc. In the end, the potential price range would be quite massive, which automatically brings the question whether it's not entirely arbitrary to begin with. I think ultimately that's the case, and I would be tempted to consider a couple of possible price points and 'try them on for size', until you hit a number that seems to make sense to you.

Also: careful with hagglers.

 

[Carnie Bob]

You're welcome. It's of course arbitrary, but what I wanted to do here is (1) create a first data point you could take into consideration and (2) hopefully stimulate you to avoid the trap of too much modesty. In reality, a cost-based approach to pricing is tricky and I doubt it really makes sense for art, so there's a massive pitfall there to begin with. If you value art on the basis of factorial cost, arguably you're not actually valuing it but in fact treating it as a commodity. So there's in my view a rather fundamental issue underlying your question - i.e. how you view your own work: as a craft, or as art. In case of the latter, the price setting may have to be based on entirely different lines of reasoning than my simplistic approach of "cost price plus". You may have to look instead at what other, comparable (go break your teeth on that one!) works of art sell for, what your standing as an artist are, how this particular work fits in your oeuvre, how that oeuvre has developed and is anticipated to develop, etc. etc. In the end, the potential price range would be quite massive, which automatically brings the question whether it's not entirely arbitrary to begin with. I think ultimately that's the case, and I would be tempted to consider a couple of possible price points and 'try them on for size', until you hit a number that seems to make sense to you.

Also: careful with hagglers.

Probably the most asked questions of myself and my gallery, how much do I price my work. There are a lot of variables , as described.