The definitive word (I hope) on color stabilzers!

OP
OP

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If they get a bleach and fix in the process, and it is chromogenic B&W, then yes, of course. A stabilizer / final rinse is intended for films with no remaining silver and with a dye image.

PE
 

Raghu Kuvempunagar

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Photo Engineer said:
If they get a bleach and fix in the process, and it is chromogenic B&W, then yes, of course. A stabilizer / final rinse is intended for films with no remaining silver and with a dye image.

PE
Click to expand...

Thanks PE for the advise.

What about bleach bypassed C41 negatives? And C41 film developed in B&W chemistry? I guess the silver in these negatives gives them protection from fungus & bacteria but will the dyes and couplers remain stable?
 

celgazer

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Dear PE:
I'm using home-brew prebleach with formaldehyde sodium bisulfite as the stabilizing agent to process some rolls of Provia 100F. My failed prebleach with high pH value (about pH 7.5） gave a strong leuco-cyan problem. After adjusting pH to 6.30 (that's the value mentioned in CIS-61), the leuco-cyan problem disappeared. In TI-2443 Page 5 Kodak mentioned if a water-spray is added between CD and prebleach, the magenta dye stability will be influenced, a stabilizer instead of final rinse should be used at this time. From my perspective, leuco-cyan dye can be considered as a secondary amine, it can react with formaldehyde and other amine groups in the gelatin to form permanent leuco-cyan dye. So, can the stabilizing effect of E-6 prebleach be triggered by the alkalinity of color developer other than the bleach solution?
 

celgazer

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Photo Engineer said:
Why don't you just use a final stabilizer with formalin? That would solve your problem.

PE
Click to expand...
Thanks for your advise.
I've used prebleach with no formaldehyde and stabilizer comprising DMDM hydantoin ( a formaldehyde releasing compound which has been widely used in cosmetics industry) to process my Provia before. However, the underexposure area tends to show a cyan color cast even under daylight, and the red Dmax is larger than my Provia IT8 target's. So I'd like to figure out what causes this color deviation.
 

mohmad khatab

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[QUOTE = "celgazer، post: 2206486، member: 90148"] شكرًا على نصيحتك.
لقد استخدمت مادة ما قبل التبييض بدون الفورمالديهايد والمثبت الذي يشتمل على DMDM hydantoin (مركب يطلق الفورمالديهايد يستخدم على نطاق واسع في صناعة مستحضرات التجميل) لمعالجة Provia من قبل. ومع ذلك ، تميل منطقة التعرض المنخفض إلى إظهار لون سماوي يلقي حتى تحت ضوء النهار ، و Dmax الأحمر أكبر من هدف Provia IT8 الخاص بي. لذا أود معرفة أسباب هذا الانحراف اللوني. [/ QUOTE]
F
 

Raghu Kuvempunagar

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@mohmad khatab: looks like nobody understood your question as it was not in English. You may want to post again after translating your question to English.
 

Lee Rust

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[QUOTE = "celgazer، post: 2206486، member: 90148"] شكرًا على نصيحتك.
لقد استخدمت مادة ما قبل التبييض بدون الفورمالديهايد والمثبت الذي يشتمل على DMDM hydantoin (مركب يطلق الفورمالديهايد يستخدم على نطاق واسع في صناعة مستحضرات التجميل) لمعالجة Provia من قبل. ومع ذلك ، تميل منطقة التعرض المنخفض إلى إظهار لون سماوي يلقي حتى تحت ضوء النهار ، و Dmax الأحمر أكبر من هدف Provia IT8 الخاص بي. لذا أود معرفة أسباب هذا الانحراف اللوني.
(Translation: "Thanks for your advice.
I have used a pre-whitening agent without formaldehyde and a fixative that includes DMDM hydantoin (a formaldehyde-releasing compound widely used in the cosmetic industry) to treat Provia before. However, the low exposure area tends to show a cyan color cast even under daylight, and the red Dmax is larger than my Provia IT8 target. So I would like to know the reasons for this chromatic aberration.")

Mohmad,
Alas, we must report that Ron Mowrey ("Photo Engineer") passed away at the beginning of this year and the only advice he can give you now is that which is already archived here on Photrio. We all miss Ron very much.
 

LSV

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Buy Formaldehyde 37% and Photo Flo - it's no problem.
Photo Flo shelf life is very long. But, Formaldehyde shelf life is 3 months.
Can anyone tell me how long he keeps his Formaldehyde?
I can't buy a new formaldehyde every 3 months.
 

iandvaag

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I would say 3 months is fairly conservative for 37% aqueous formaldehyde stabilized with methanol. Different manufacturers give shelf lives of 12 or 24 months. I'm no expert in organic chemistry, but I would say that if there is no cloudiness or precipitate, and the solution still smells of formaldehyde (don't breathe the stuff intentionally!), you're probably good to go. FWIW, I have a bottle from 2016 which is still clear and smells like formaldehyde. I just keep the bottle tightly capped and in a plastic bag, stored at room temp. As you can see from the range given in the formula in the OP, it doesn't seem like the concentration is too critical for this application.
 

LSV

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iandvaag said:
... I have a bottle from 2016 which is still clear and smells like formaldehyde....
Click to expand...

This is what I needed to know! Thank you!
4-5 years is not a short period.
Thank you!

Have you tried replacing Formaldehyde with Hexamine (or Urotropine)?
Unicolor uses Hexamine (urotropine).
 

JWMster

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PE: Still relevant. Still treasured. Still missed. May his posts teach us forever. Sic transit, Gloria Mundi. Thank you my friend. Again and again, let us say.
 

iandvaag

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Every time I used the kits with hexamine, I had problems with drying marks on the non-emulsion side. I mixed the hexamine with distilled water as per the directions on the kit and removed the excess by running the film between two gloved fingers. I think others have also had problems with water marks when using the supplied hexamine as instructed. I've never had problems using the formalin stabilizer given in the OP.

Yes, indeed. There's scarcely a day that goes by without me thinking about Ron.
 

Joe Dagostino

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I Have some old Konica film, kept in cold storage all these years, expired in 1994, here are what my negatives look like after developing in new c41 chemistry, is this a result of no formalin ? the other negative is current kodak portra developed same time same tank. Konica on left Kodak on right
 

eatfrog

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No. It is because the film was expired and has increased base fog.
 

MattKing

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The lack of formalin will probably not affect how newly developed film appears, but it may affect how long the negatives last afterwards.
 

WilliamP

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Sorry to bring up an old thread, I've been reading as much as I can about this topic but I'm still not 100% sure on the matter.

I have some frozen VPS 3 4x5 film and I've shot a few sheets. The images turned out quite well apart from some poor metering on my part.

I sent them to a dip and dunk lab here in London and I asked about whether or not formalin/formaldehyde is present in the stabiliser or even if it was necessary. I was told they use Fuji chemicals and he mentioned that my film should be fine and properly stabilised but I got a bit confused from his answer. I have been trying to find a data sheet or any info that might show if the Fuji chemicals work with stabilising older films like VPS 3 but no luck. Can anyone let me know if there's any info on this matter?

If my film isn't properly stabilised I don't mind still sending it to the lab and then doing a stab bath at home. Not really able to comfortably develop colour sheet film at my current house but short and quick bath is no issue. A few places have the Cinestill Stabilizer in stock and it's quite cheap and in reasonable quantities.
It seems to contain Hexamine, would this work in the same way as formalin?
Any other suggestions if it's unsuitable?

Thanks!
 

albada

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Firstly, welcome to Photrio!

VPS (Vericolor III) is developed with the C-41process, which is the standard process these days. Stab is a step in that process, and Fuji chemicals include stabiliser, so your lab undoubtedly will stabilise your film in the normal and proper manner.
 

koraks

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@albada, this is a simplification that is not entirely reliable. While the present C41 does indeed include a final rinse, this final rinse serves a couple of purposes:
* Removal/dilution of traces of fixer
* Addition of a fungicide to the emulsion to prevent deterioration of the emulsion itself in later life
* Actual stabilization of the color dyes
* The final rinse generally contains a wetting agent that helps to prevent drying marks
The relevance of most of the above depends on several other factors such as processing context/equipment and film storage. But the stabilization of the dyes is necessary for older films up to 20-30 ago (see PE's posts), while present-day C41 films apparently do not require a stabilizer for the stability of the dyes. Hence, the stabilizer is often replaced today with a final rinse that does not contain formalin or a formalin precursor, although the presence of a precursor is still possible.

So in short, @WilliamP, if your lab actually applies the stabilizer that your film requires for optimal permanence is a bit of a gamble. I don't know which flavor of the Fuji chemistry they use and even then I'd still have to root around in their MSDS' to figure out if it's an actual stabilizer or merely a final rinse.

If you want to be certain, you could indeed apply a stabilization step at home. The most straightforward method would be to dip the film in a weak formalin solution with a few drops of photoflo added (although I find the latter usually unnecessary for 4x5 sheet film) - please familiarize yourself with any health implications and take proper precautions such as performing this step outdoors. This won't hurt the film even if it has already gone through proper stabilizer at the lab. Let the film dry; do not wash after running it through your stabilizer bath as this would simply wash out most of the formalin.
 

albada

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koraks said:
[...] If you want to be certain, you could indeed apply a stabilization step at home. The most straightforward method would be to dip the film in a weak formalin solution [...]
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info about final rinse. I was still living in the days of stabilizer. Sounds like the OP should ask his lab about this.
 

WilliamP

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Thank you!
I think I might just end up doing the step at home. Might try a few other labs anyways since London labs are getting a bit on the pricy side, so I might as well just make sure my film is stabilised correctly.

If I want to avoid having doing a straight formalin + photo flo bath would the Unicolor c41 stabiliser or the Cinestill stabiliser work? Both contain Hexamine and on the Unicolor data sheet it writes:
Hexamine - Decomposes as formaldehyde and ammonia. That sounds right to me but maybe it's not suitable
 
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