The case for buing Pacific Image and Plustek scanners instead of old discontinued models

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Helge

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We will have to agree to disagree about the "easily attainable" part :smile:. Same applies to flatness of field in the optics - at least to the standard I think is necessary.
Enlargers and projectors have been doing a bang on job for a hundred years or more. It’s not that hard.
On the contrary many scanners and the holders going with them seems to have difficulty holding the film flat and in focus.
How do you take a snap of the whole role? Are you pulling my leg?

Also put together a list for me for everything I need for 35mm digital camera scan.

Show me your examples of stitched camera.
Not a snap of the whole roll (though that would certainly be a possibility if you were an great hurry and you had a big enough light table).
Single frames.
In a pinch even a smartphone will do the job of “contact print sheet”.

- Enlarger column or copy stand (or even a small sturdily tripod will do). Some people even use a deep edge padded shade that they just sit on the film.
- Macro/reversed enlarger lens or just a good sharp reverse mounted prime.
- Light table of some sort. I prefer an opal glass plate with remote/cable triggered diffused flash.
- And a holder. Use an enlarger holder (open or glass or use AN glass on top of the film.
Even use electrical tape at the edges or strips of led rubber (not as cumbersome as it sounds).

That’s it. Happy scanning.

Can be anywhere from practically free to several hundred dollars, depending on what you have and can get cheap.

Footprint is the enlarger or copy stands board. Not more than a flatbed scanner. And a hell of a lot more moveable and flexible.
 

250swb

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However, I fully understand if somebody has e.g. limited mobility, or can't be bothered with reading a scanner manual and learning to use Vuescan, or has lost the appetite for actual photography, or has a $4000 DSLR lying around collecting dust and wants to tinker around a repro stand. It's just .. Not the only way to do it. I wish DSLR scanning fanboys would realise this.

Ah, so there we have it, people who have moved on and use DSLR 'scanning' have 'lost the appetite for actual photography'. I would suggest that is the very same argument made of people who took up film scanning instead of printing in a darkroom. So pretty much a false argument you have going on there, especially after calling people shills.
 

albireo

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I think the V850 does a pretty good job even with 35mm.

Alan, I like your scans. I used to own a V550. It cost me new the equivalent of 200$. I thought it had an unbeatable price/performance ratio especially with medium format negatives, provided they were well exposed and developed correctly.

But then, if you think about it, actually even the line sensor in these cheap flatbeds is, in a way, a better scanning device than the interpolated sensors in mirrorless/DSLR cameras.

Just to clear up a few things. In essence, the raw output of Bayer-filter cameras consists of a so-called Bayer pattern image: an arrangement of colour filters on a square grid of photosensors. In the Bayer arrangement, this filter consists of a matrix of repeating 2x2 pixel patterns, one coding for red, one for blue, and two for green. Importantly, each pixel is filtered to record only one of three colors:

Bayer Filter
gMEff6G.png

[source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter]

So the key thing here is that each pixel of the sensor is behind a colour filter and the output is an array of pixel values, each indicating a raw intensity for one of Red, Green or Blue. This arrangement needs an algorithm to estimate for each pixel the colour levels for all colour components, rather than a single component.

This is called `demosaicing'. There are different implementations of this - think of it as a type of signal interpolation. Now compared to the initial, raw intensity images, the reconstructed image is typically accurate in uniform-coloured areas, but will have a loss of resolution (detail and sharpness) and edge artefacts. This is a big topic and one that is valid for the output of X-trans sensors too (perhaps even more valid as the output of an X-trans array has historically been found to be more difficult to demosaicise).

But to go back to scanning, most dedicated film scanners do not rely on Bayer (or equivalent) pattern matrices and the raw output they produce does not require demosaicing. The so-called `line CCD sensors' in a scanner are, at a very raw level, better than any camera sensor because they do not interpolate and because they use only a single line using the best part of a sharp dedicated lens so there is little or no optical distortion or other lens flaws added.

One consequence of the lack of a Bayer array+demosaicing is that when a scanner like the Coolscan 8000/9000ED or the Pacific Image is scanning 90mp, those are 90mp of full color data. Digital camera colour data is only 1/4 of the stated resolution due to the above. So even, say, a Fujifilm GFX 100 (a 102mp sensor, 10K$ camera) is only getting 25mp of full color data (and another 25mp of extra green [luminosity] data) from its 100mp of photosites. There are workarounds to limit that: eg pixel shift, but you are still left with the limitations of digital camera colour, lens flaws, having go through the hassle of stitching when scanning 120, plus any other issues inherent with the specific home-made scanning setup used (vibrations of the repro stand? imprecise sensor/film alignment? poor quality/evenness of the retro-illumination; and much more). Orange mask removal is another story and so is the lack of IR (infra-red channel) for dust removal in home made DSLR scanning rigs, but you know that already.

In any case - apologies to OP for further contributing to derailing this thread, which IMU wasn't about DSLR scanning at all.
 
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Radost

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Alan, I like your scans. I used to own a V550. It cost me new the equivalent of 200$. I thought it had an unbeatable price/performance ratio especially with medium format negatives, provided they were well exposed and developed correctly.

But then, if you think about it, actually even the line sensor in these cheap flatbeds is, in a way, a better scanning device than the interpolated sensors in mirrorless/DSLR cameras.

Just to clear up a few things. In essence, the raw output of Bayer-filter cameras consists of a so-called Bayer pattern image: an arrangement of colour filters on a square grid of photosensors. In the Bayer arrangement, this filter consists of a matrix of repeating 2x2 pixel patterns, one coding for red, one for blue, and two for green. Importantly, each pixel is filtered to record only one of three colors:

Bayer Filter
gMEff6G.png

[source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter]

So the key thing here is that each pixel of the sensor is behind a colour filter and the output is an array of pixel values, each indicating a raw intensity for one of Red, Green or Blue. This arrangement needs an algorithm to estimate for each pixel the colour levels for all colour components, rather than a single component.

This is called `demosaicising'. There are different implementations of this - think of it as a type of signal interpolation. Now compared to the initial, raw intensity images, the reconstructed image is typically accurate in uniform-colored areas, but will have a loss of resolution (detail and sharpness) and edge artefacts. This is a big topic and one that is valid for the output of X-trans sensors too (perhaps even more valid as the output of an X-trans array has historically been found to be more difficult to demosaicise).

But to go back to scanning, most dedicated film scanners do not rely on Bayer (or equivalent) pattern matrices and the raw output they produce does not require demosaicing. The so-called `line CCD sensors' in a scanner are, at a very raw level, better than any camera sensor because they do not interpolate and because they use only a single line using the best part of a sharp dedicated lens so there is little or no optical distortion or other lens flaws added.

One consequence of the lack of a Bayer array+demosaicing is that when a scanner like the Coolscan 8000/9000ED or the Pacific Image is scanning 90mp, those are 90mp of full color data. Digital camera colour data is only 1/4 of the stated resolution due to the above. So even, say, a Fujifilm GFX 100 (a 102mp sensor, 10K$ camera) is only getting 25mp of full color data (and another 25mp of extra green [luminosity] data) from its 100mp of photosites. There are workarounds to limit that: eg pixel shift, but you are still left with the limitations of digital camera colour, lens flaws, having go through the hassle of stitching when scanning 120, plus any other issues inherent with the specific home-made scanning setup used (vibrations of the repro stand? imprecise sensor/film alignment? poor quality/evenness of the retro-illumination; and much more). Orange mask removal is another story and so is the lack of IR (infra-red channel) for dust removal in home made DSLR scanning rigs, but you know that already.

In any case - apologies to OP for further contributing to derailing this thread, which IMU wasn't about DSLR scanning at all.
Amazing info.
It was not my intention to turn this in to a scanner vs digital camera.
My intention was to praise the small companies that still provide us with products and to make the case that the quality of the product is very good and we should support them.
 

MattKing

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Enlargers and projectors have been doing a bang on job for a hundred years or more. It’s not that hard.
Good luck achieving even illumination and excellent flat field performance at 1:1 magnification with newly made, low cost equipment and materials.
It is considerably easier to do that at the magnifications used in enlargers and projectors.
Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed with the efforts that people have devoted to using digital cameras to digitize film. I just know that when I've attempted to do it, the equipment I already have is ill suited for the procedure, and the investment necessary to end up with something that would be both good and convenient is in the same range as a new scanner, and would take a lot more space to use.
If you can come up with a decent quality "box" that handles the illumination and film handling and optical requirements and only requires me to mount my wife's micro 4/3 camera to it, then we can talk.
 

MattKing

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That is just illumination and film handling.
You need to add appropriate optics and a light tight means for mounting a camera exactly parallel to the film, at the right distance(s) for digitizing film formats.
In order to use with multiple film formats you probably need the ability to use several different lenses and to adjust the camera, lens and film positions to the format.
I don't think there are any zoom optics that would be of sufficient quality at those 1:1 - 4:1 magnifications over a range of film sizes, but if any exist, they wouldn't be cheap.
 
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Radost

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I use a Skier Copybox and have been for a few years. Recently upgraded to the model 3 for the 4x5 and MF pano holders.
Those that think stitching is difficult tells me what their experience is with post processing programs.
Stitching is an automatic process, by far not the most difficult part of digitizing film.

I use a digital back and also a Fujifilm X-Pro3 for digitizing film.
I have four scanners currently collecting dust. Why? Because digitizing film is superior than scanning from my experience.
Whether you are scanning film or digitizing it, you are sending it through an electronic process.

Below are some quick images of a digitized 4x5 film from an article I wrote a couple years ago.
One is of a single capture, the second is stitched from four captures.
I could have sliced the negative into many more parts if needed, but I was simply doing this as a demonstration.

I personally will not invest anymore money into a scanner. It is a technology with few choices today.
My Mamiya 6 is a beloved camera that I am currently having difficulty finding a repair person for.
This happens eventually to old technology.


photo-single-frame.jpg

photo-stitched-frames.jpg

digitizing-tools.jpg

I don't think I have the money or the space for this setup. My scanners just go in a drawer when I don't use them
Can you share a 135 picture you took with this setup? slide or color if possible.
 

madNbad

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This was an intermediate set up in the ever evolving quest. It consited of a Sony A5100 I bougt for $150 usd, 55 Micro-Nikkor 2.8 Ai-S, Metabones adapter, a modifird Alzo copy stand and a Skier Copybox:
IMG_1827.jpeg


When I was finised with a roll, I could just pick it up and put it in a closet.

This was the last before I moved to the Negative Supply system: Sony A7II, 55 Micro-Nikkor 2.8 Ai-S, Metabones adapter, modified Alzo copy stand:

IMG_1897.jpeg
 
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Radost

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Can you show me a 135 picture taken with your digital cameras?
 

faberryman

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The image is a 551KB 1024x683 JPG. It is not much of a test, but it looks pretty good on my laptop. What is the original file size and dimensions? Did you save the original camera scan as RAW or JPG?
 

madNbad

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The image was scanned as raw, it was resized from the original to post on the site. Tried to import a BB code from Flickr but wasn't successful.
 

faberryman

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The image was scanned as raw, it was resized from the original to post on the site. Tried to import a BB code from Flickr but wasn't successful.
I am sure you scanning setup gives you excellent results.
 
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Radost

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Is there some kind of integrated Noise reduction sharpening going on? It looks way too sterile. And I guess this is how a lot of those examples look to me.
If somebody lives in Las Vegas I will be interested in a digital camera vs scanner test of the same negative.

M4, Voigtlander 35 2.0 Ultron ASPH, 5222, HC-110 Diluton B
Sony A7II, 55 2.8 Micro-Nikkor Ai-S, Skier Copybox II

View attachment 301421

https://flic.kr/p/2narzp7
 
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Radost

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You forgot the part about the scanner software.
I'll help you out ...

"Interpolation is a process that the scanning software uses to increase the perceived resolution of an image. It does this by creating extra pixels in between the ones actually scanned by the CCD array. These extra pixels are an average of the adjacent pixels. For example, if the hardware resolution is 300x300 and the interpolated resolution is 600x300, then the software is adding a pixel between every one scanned by a CCD sensor in each row."

Here's a good place to read about how scanners work:
https://computer.howstuffworks.com/scanner3.htm#:~:text=What does that mean?,average of the adjacent pixels.

I don't think he needs help. :smile:
Can you upload the Pelican digital camera picture from your web site? I am curious to see how it looks.
 

madNbad

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Is there some kind of integrated Noise reduction sharpening going on? It looks way too sterile. And I guess this is how a lot of those examples look to me. If somebody lives in Las Vegas I will be interested in a digital camera vs scanner test.

No sharpening, no other adjustments other than the basics of exposure and contrast. Here's a link to one from a Plustek 7600i:

https://flic.kr/p/TGnY1L
 

250swb

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Good luck achieving even illumination and excellent flat field performance at 1:1 magnification with newly made, low cost equipment and materials.
It is considerably easier to do that at the magnifications used in enlargers and projectors.
Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed with the efforts that people have devoted to using digital cameras to digitize film. I just know that when I've attempted to do it, the equipment I already have is ill suited for the procedure, and the investment necessary to end up with something that would be both good and convenient is in the same range as a new scanner, and would take a lot more space to use.
If you can come up with a decent quality "box" that handles the illumination and film handling and optical requirements and only requires me to mount my wife's micro 4/3 camera to it, then we can talk.

There are a couple of people who are putting out bogus ideas regarding flatbed/dedicated scanner vs DSLR scanning, and to be honest the arguments that go in favour of dedicated film scanner are so shallow nowadays they don't even deserve to be acknowledged. However the 'box' for DSLR scanning that you want somebody to present you with is pretty much available if you try. I guess you could find out for yourself, but the simple, top quality and cheap equipment has already been itemised on this forum if you already have a suitable camera. You need a copy stand (it doesn't need to expensive or fancy, so long as you aren't practicing the tango while copying your negs), a Kaiser light tablet, a negative holder (you may already have an enlarger holder or a scanner holder), and a macro lens. Then depending on where you do your post processing a matching software programme to invert your negatives into positives.
 
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Radost

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No sharpening, no other adjustments other than the basics of exposure and contrast. Here's a link to one from a Plustek 7600i:

https://flic.kr/p/TGnY1L
The plustek while a bad scan it shows the roughness the grain which I guess I like and miss on all digital pictures
 
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Radost

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You can thank the Silverfast software for that.
I use silver fast exclusively and love the results.
The pig and Hamon pictures I posted are silverfast
 
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Radost

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There are a couple of people who are putting out bogus ideas regarding flatbed/dedicated scanner vs DSLR scanning, and to be honest the arguments that go in favour of dedicated film scanner are so shallow nowadays they don't even deserve to be acknowledged. However the 'box' for DSLR scanning that you want somebody to present you with is pretty much available if you try. I guess you could find out for yourself, but the simple, top quality and cheap equipment has already been itemised on this forum if you already have a suitable camera. You need a copy stand (it doesn't need to expensive or fancy, so long as you aren't practicing the tango while copying your negs), a Kaiser light tablet, a negative holder (you may already have an enlarger holder or a scanner holder), and a macro lens. Then depending on where you do your post processing a matching software programme to invert your negatives into positives.

Dude nobody is "putting out bogus ideas". If anything the digital camera shooters are being defensive.
One of my issues with digital camera picture is how to calibrate the angle and flat perspective. My scanner does it automatically. I don't want to think about it.

Some people like scanner film scans. Nothing bad about that. Maybe I relate to scanners scan because I am use to looking at it for 3 decades.

Photography is fluid. Its art. Nothing is the same. You like digital camera pictures of negatives? Good.
I prefer scanners. And want them to be available for a long time. Companies that support analog photography need our respect and support. All I am saying. Sony can survive without the analog community money.
You will always have digital cameras. You are not in danger. I am.
 
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