Survey - Kodachrome Revival Price Point?

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What is the MAXIMUM you be willing to pay for Kodachrome plus processing?

  • film + processing <$40 per roll

    Votes: 26 25.7%
  • film + processing <$50 per roll

    Votes: 12 11.9%
  • film + processing <$60 per roll

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • film + processing <$70 per roll

    Votes: 2 2.0%
  • No price limit

    Votes: 3 3.0%
  • uninterested at any price

    Votes: 58 57.4%

  • Total voters
    101
  • Poll closed .
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Roger Cole

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To your point, I (like others) scan my chromes because you can't print them anymore, so I only really shoot color chromes in 120 or 4x5. Shooting color chromes for scanning and printing, and not paying for a drum scan, severely limits my size capabilities. As is I only shoot maybe 6 ROLLS of 35mm color film a year. If Kodachrome really came back, (and in theory if I didn't have the store of 100 rolls already) I might shoot 1-2 rolls "just because" but I value E-6 too much, as is it's almost already into extinction, and I wouldn't want to jeopardize the longevity of Velvia50/100 and Provia100f by buying Kodak's limited run of K-14

I'm sure others might recognize this danger too.

I see your point about not jeopardizing something more sustainable, but I'd continue to shoot both.

Ironically, with the price of 35mm film scanners, if you do your own scans and inkjet prints you can probably print about as large and about as well from 35mm as from medium format, if one compares a good dedicated 35mm film scanned output to a good v700/750 scanned medium format neg, though I've seen some really good 16x20s from v700 scanned 6x7 negs.

As I said, I shoot E6 mainly for projection, and also scan at low res for web sharing. I can have the odd image or two professionally scanned and printed if I want. I probably shoot an additional 10 rolls or so of C41 a year, almost all in 120. Ironically I tend to shoot color when I just don't have time to process and print black and white because I can send it out and forget it.
 

Roger Cole

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All color films have at least three silver halide light-sensitive layers.

Good point. So even if it uses a bit more silver per layer I still see no reason for it to cost much more than E6 films. It's the processing that's the rub. Always has been, for that matter, as I suspect that was largely behind the preference for E6 at least at first, and a lot more Kodachrome would have been shot if people could have processed it at home as easily as E6.
 

railwayman3

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Good point. So even if it uses a bit more silver per layer I still see no reason for it to cost much more than E6 films. It's the processing that's the rub. Always has been, for that matter, as I suspect that was largely behind the preference for E6 at least at first, and a lot more Kodachrome would have been shot if people could have processed it at home as easily as E6.

I recall that I, and other of the local Photo Club, switched to E6 in the 1980's when Kodak UK seemed to be producing regular scratches and blue spots on their processed Kodachrome. It was some years before I regained confidence in it, by which time processing had switched to Switzerland and then to Dwaynes.
 

StoneNYC

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I see your point about not jeopardizing something more sustainable, but I'd continue to shoot both.

Ironically, with the price of 35mm film scanners, if you do your own scans and inkjet prints you can probably print about as large and about as well from 35mm as from medium format, if one compares a good dedicated 35mm film scanned output to a good v700/750 scanned medium format neg, though I've seen some really good 16x20s from v700 scanned 6x7 negs.

As I said, I shoot E6 mainly for projection, and also scan at low res for web sharing. I can have the odd image or two professionally scanned and printed if I want. I probably shoot an additional 10 rolls or so of C41 a year, almost all in 120. Ironically I tend to shoot color when I just don't have time to process and print black and white because I can send it out and forget it.

If I could afford the send out processing that would probably be my option because I would prefer to not have to deal with processing E-6 honestly as long as it were good quality. Then I would be shooting a heck of a lot more crowns, but there again lies the big issue, money, if it weren't for money, I and many would probably shoot more.

I've got about 50-60 rolls of color film (mostly 120) siting in my fridge ready for processing... Some of it is over a year old...

Just don't have the scratch to send it out, and don't have the time to do it myself (as you said) so what am I to do? :sad:....
 

Matus Kalisky

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About a half of the members seem not care too much about Kodachrome being reintroduced. To be honest I am one of them. Part of the reason is indeed that I never used the film (was discontinued before I got 'down' to small format) and the other part is that most of the photographs I have seen (Flickr indeed) had awful colours (PP & scanning is surely part of the problem) and contrast issues. Would I like to give it a try? Sure, but I will not loose my sleep over it, sorry. Ask me about Polaroid P55 (which I have not used either, but have seen lovely results) and you may get entirely different answer.

Please I mean no offence to those who like and really miss Kodachrome. I promise to buy few should it make it back to life to support the case though. Even at those crazy prices from the poll.
 

Roger Cole

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I have some images from my 2010 "farewell to Kodachrome" on my Flickr page. Nothing great. Processing and scanning was by Dwayne's who only managed to scratch one slide (one I love though, a photo of my wife then-girlfriend and elderly mother - it's not on my Flickr page, may need to clone out the scratch and add it) and known for, um, not best scans. I cleaned them up a bit. The K200 stands out as being not nearly as good as the 64. I never shot 25. I am aware that most folks considered it superior but it was just too darned slow for me.

Most of them could just as well be E6 for the difference you can tell after scanning, reducing resolution and posting online. A few do reveal a bit of "the Kodachrome look" that comes across so much more in projection. This one seems to show it to me, if you excuse the bit of vignetting in the corners from the lens shade on the 28-105 Series 1:


Fall Colors01 by Roger Cole, on Flickr
 
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StoneNYC

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I have some images from my 2010 "farewell to Kodachrome" on my Flickr page. Nothing great. Processing and scanning was by Dwayne's who only managed to scratch one slide (one I love though, a photo of my wife then-girlfriend and elderly mother - it's not on my Flickr page, may need to clone out the scratch and add it) and known for, um, not best scans. I cleaned them up a bit. The K200 stands out as being not nearly as good as the 64. I never shot 25. I am aware that most folks considered it superior but it was just too darned slow for me.

Most of them could just as well be E6 for the difference you can tell after scanning, reducing resolution and posting online. A few do reveal a bit of "the Kodachrome look" that comes across so much more in projection. This one seems to show it to me, if you excuse the bit of vignetting in the corners from the lens shade on the 28-105 Series 1:


Fall Colors01 by Roger Cole, on Flickr

Yep, that's a Dwayne's scan alright...

I don't get why they are so bad... Lol.

But that's a beautiful image :smile:
 

Photo Engineer

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Actually no. Kodachrome is "silver-rich" in comparison to E-6. And instead of having one silver-gelatin emulsion layer, it has THREE, each with a sensitizer coupler to key it to a specific region of the color spectrum. What's a roll of Tri-X cost now? Triple that, and maybe more to compensate for the lower volume, increased quality control requirements and the more advanced chemistry.

Sorry, but both you and Roger are incorrect in your comments.

Kodachrome is not "silver rich" any more than any E6 film is. It is, however, very thin due to having no couplers present. This very thinness makes it difficult to coat, but does improve sharpness.

PE
 

StoneNYC

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Sorry, but both you and Roger are incorrect in your comments.

Kodachrome is not "silver rich" any more than any E6 film is. It is, however, very thin due to having no couplers present. This very thinness makes it difficult to coat, but does improve sharpness.

PE

New Years Resolution: meet Ron Mowrey....
 

MattKing

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Roger Cole

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Sorry, but both you and Roger are incorrect in your comments.

Kodachrome is not "silver rich" any more than any E6 film is. It is, however, very thin due to having no couplers present. This very thinness makes it difficult to coat, but does improve sharpness.

PE

Would the coating difficulty make it more expensive to make? Just wondering about the film - it's always seemed to me the real hitch was the processing.
 

Photo Engineer

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Yes Roger, the coating problem make it more difficult to manufacture. Defect rate goes up and coating speed is forced down. But, this happens in several "thin" products, but they have viable markets. Some, without suitable market share die.

PE
 

Roger Cole

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Yep, that's a Dwayne's scan alright...

I don't get why they are so bad... Lol.

But that's a beautiful image :smile:

Thanks for the compliment.

Honestly, what's so bad about the scan? There is no real detail in the white house. I'd have to look at the slide to be sure but I doubt there's any on the film, it's so brilliant. Light/dark and to some extent contrast are a guessing game with an uncalibrated monitor, which mine is. I did tweak those a little on these, but otherwise didn't mess with them. Really it seems ok to me. Maybe I'm just not a connoisseur of good scans. :wink:
 

Roger Cole

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Yes Roger, the coating problem make it more difficult to manufacture. Defect rate goes up and coating speed is forced down. But, this happens in several "thin" products, but they have viable markets. Some, without suitable market share die.

PE

Thanks for the info. It didn't seem to sell for much more back when it was on the market, which might have been due to market constraints or the additional costs being spread over sufficiently large volume as to be inconsequential.

Not insurmountable but would add to the cost. How much it would add is a question almost as academic as the rest of this thread. :wink:
 

StoneNYC

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Don't worry Matt. It seems that I am going to be out of town that day! :D

Just kidding Stone.

PE

Haha :wink:

Ron has on more than one occasion invited me up to visit him at EK, it's always either a work thing, a scheduling thing, or a gas / time / money, thing that prevents me from getting up there, but I'm determined to do it this year! :smile:
 

StoneNYC

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Thanks for the compliment.

Honestly, what's so bad about the scan? There is no real detail in the white house. I'd have to look at the slide to be sure but I doubt there's any on the film, it's so brilliant. Light/dark and to some extent contrast are a guessing game with an uncalibrated monitor, which mine is. I did tweak those a little on these, but otherwise didn't mess with them. Really it seems ok to me. Maybe I'm just not a connoisseur of good scans. :wink:

No, it's definitely Dwayne's photo scans, not your slide, I'm sure of it, just look at http://stonenyc.com and click the "Kodachrome project" link on the left bottom side.

You'll see a gallery link (flash) to some examples I uploaded before my trip in 2010 (they are scans from Dwayne's from my 3 test rolls I shot in October of 2010 before the trip). I haven't updated them with "good" scans, but the quality is just terrible...

In comparison...

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1388517952.453796.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1388517963.488208.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1388517970.855390.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1388517978.289315.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1388517984.139767.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1388517990.123541.jpg

I am on my phone, and unfortunately I couldn't access any of the scans I took of the images that are actually on the website for exact comparison, but I think you get the picture. Better scanning can be had elsewhere.
 
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I suspect the anticipated result of this poll was that it would demonstrate there was no interest at all in a hypothetically revived Kodachrome product. That when people were asked about exactly how much real money they would be willing to part with, suddenly all of the feigned interest would evaporate.

But that has not turned out to be the case. The results have consistently hovered around a 60/40 split, where fully ~40% of respondents have indicated a willingness to open their wallets if the product returned. (It's slightly better than 40% in favor at the moment, but it drifts back-and-forth.)

What does it prove? Nothing, really. Except that the original premise was not true. There is significant interest. Much higher than I expected, truthfully. How much would translate into actual sales? I dunno'. How much into repeat sales? I dunno'. How much into volume sales? I dunno'.

But none of these follow-on issues were addressed by the original question. It was only about how much would you be willing to spend per roll? That's it. Much in the same way that the original poster's question was a very, very simple "Is it totally dead?" That's it.

These discussions are subject to insidious scope-creep. Before you know it people are demanding to know why all of those 40% positives have not taken classes with PE to learn how to make Kodachrome in their bathrooms (or barns) before being allowed to cast a credible positive vote in the poll. Or have not posted hundreds of dollars in advanced money before voting positively. Or have not jumped through gazillions of other flaming hoops before voting, just to prove their sincerity to the doubters.

I mean, if you can't synthesize the whole Kodachrome tomato all by yourself in the basement (just read the patents!), then saying you'd be interested to use a revived Kodachrome carries absolutely no weight. Right? Heck, I never use Tri-X until I can recreate it from scratch in the kitchen. Do you? Of course you don't...

It's good that these forums are open to all opinions. That must not change. But the price often paid is that the discerning reader must be able to figure out what is the critical path in a discussion, then discipline himself to stick to that path. The rest is just entertainment.

Ken
 

StoneNYC

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I suspect the anticipated result of this poll was that it would demonstrate there was no interest at all in a hypothetically revived Kodachrome product. That when people were asked about exactly how much real money they would be willing to part with, suddenly all of the feigned interest would evaporate.

But that has not turned out to be the case. The results have consistently hovered around a 60/40 split, where fully ~40% of respondents have indicated a willingness to open their wallets if the product returned. (It's slightly better than 40% in favor at the moment, but it drifts back-and-forth.)

What does it prove? Nothing, really. Except that the original premise was not true. There is significant interest. Much higher than I expected, truthfully. How much would translate into actual sales? I dunno'. How much into repeat sales? I dunno'. How much into volume sales? I dunno'.

But none of these follow-on issues were addressed by the original question. It was only about how much would you be willing to spend per roll? That's it. Much in the same way that the original poster's question was a very, very simple "Is it totally dead?" That's it.

These discussions are subject to insidious scope-creep. Before you know it people are demanding to know why all of those 40% positives have not taken classes with PE to learn how to make Kodachrome in their bathrooms (or barns) before being allowed to cast a credible positive vote in the poll. Or have not posted hundreds of dollars in advanced money before voting positively. Or have not jumped through gazillions of other flaming hoops before voting, just to prove their sincerity to the doubters.

I mean, if you can't synthesize the whole Kodachrome tomato all by yourself in the basement (just read the patents!), then saying you'd be interested to use a revived Kodachrome carries absolutely no weight. Right? Heck, I never use Tri-X until I can recreate it from scratch in the kitchen. Do you? Of course you don't...

It's good that these forums are open to all opinions. That must not change. But the price often paid is that the discerning reader must be able to figure out what is the critical path in a discussion, then discipline himself to stick to that path. The rest is just entertainment.

Ken

The bigger question (which also had an inadequate poll option) was how much would you buy, one, maybe 2 rolls "just because"?

I would prefer these polls had a more accurate and available set of options, choosing "less than 40" over "none" doesn't tell you anything, because many would ere on the side of caution and choose "some" rather than none at all, but probably wouldn't pay more than $20 per roll, which is a far cry from $40...

Ya dig?

These polls, both, are useless...

Ken, you're the stats guy, design a GOOD poll for us will you? :smile:

EDIT: by the way, I do recognize that flying camera set up the pool to be realistic of the price point that it would probably COST in order to have it be a viable option, that doesn't mean that it's a fair goal designed to be accurate to what people would actually be willing to PAY in reality. When I say his polls aren't good, it's not to indicate he is bad at determining true price, just bad at designing polls to actually give you realistic data, that's all.

There should always be a NO option, and always be extreme values at either end as well.

$0 $5 $10, $25, $50, $100, $1,000

You can always average the low numbers together to get a more reasonable expectation, but if you have no lowball numbers and no highball numbers you really don't have a good idea of where in the spectrum people really are...

Same with the other poll

0, 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 75, 100, 200, 1,000

In terms of rolls per year.
 
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Photo Engineer

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Just to be clear Stone, we were going to meet at one of our GEH lunches if you ever made it up here. There is no EK connection any more! And the lunches are less frequent now as we all get older, and we never have them during a GEH workshop.

PE
 

Truzi

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Somehow, though, I get the impression that the majority of the English-literate internet-using film-purchasing public is not on this forum, or even proportionally represented on APUG. Our little APUG.org world might be skewed... perhaps even an outlier.
 

Photo Engineer

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I think that it is really a matter of frank indifference to our threads on Kodachrome that limits response here to about 3 dozen or so of the same people.

PE
 
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The bigger question...

All potentially true. But be that discerning reader. That 40% did express an interest at some level, based on the question asked and voting options provided. They were not misled by the question. The question is painfully clearly stated. No one was tricked or fooled or bribed into clicking a positive vote.

Same goes for the negative votes. They knew they were voting no. And they knew what they were voting no to. And for each individual, why.

Because of the limitations inherent in the poll's structure, many unavoidable, I don't think I'd be comfortable carrying any meaningful interpretation much beyond that. And I damned sure hope EK/EA doesn't base a decision to restart Kodachrome (or any film) based on these results. THAT would be a fool's errand.

But neither can one dismiss entirely the results of the poll. Opinions were solicited. Votes were cast. And voters were saying something with each of those votes. It would be a mistake to read too much into the results. But it would also be a mistake to read nothing into the results.

Ken
 
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BrianShaw

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I think that it is really a matter of frank indifference to our threads on Kodachrome that limits response here to about 3 dozen or so of the same people.

PE

... some of whom, earnestly speaking, are, frankly, indifferent. :laugh:
 

Wayne

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I think that it is really a matter of frank indifference to our threads on Kodachrome that limits response here to about 3 dozen or so of the same people.

PE

That's simply not true. Even some of the respondents are indifferent. :smile:
 
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