Strong Lith Developer

Somewhere in between traditional printing and lith printing, is yet another world.
It’s a lot of fun in my opinion. It’s a great 'normal'-ish developer in its own right but has diversity.
If you have never done ‘normal’ lith printing this might be a bit maddening….
There is no set development time.
It’s more intuitive and has what is called a ‘snatch point’ to get the sucker out of there….
Longer, too strong; shorter, too weak.
I have very limited use of developers so I’m interested in what the experienced have to say.
I tweaked the ‘whole’ system to work well with this. At current, I’m shooting 35mm using ilford delta at 50 developed in rollo pyro for 7min.
I’ve found it gives nice ‘straight’ prints with the other variables below.
So, this is what I’m doing:
I buy the arista powder from Freestyle.
30ml Arista A, 25ml Arista B, 120ml room temp water.
6:5:24
Don't ask how I came up with the ratio....I've long forgotten....
If I was to give it a name I guess I'd call it SLD or SLD6524
Anyway, this is the small amount I use for 5X7 and smaller prints in a 5X7 tray.
It’s just enough to cover the print.
It creates a nice warm tone with Fomatone MG. I like the velvet so I’m using the 133.
If I use the 00 filter I gain control of the blacks a bit more.
For an idea on exposure with this combo it’s about 1min at f/11.
There is still a snatch point but it builds up a bit slower so its easier to tell I think.
The first print is ready in about 3 mins or so with the developer at room temp (78F tap today) and times increase from there, but not too bad.
You could heat it up like normal lith printing, but since it’s strong I just do without.
I think it ‘lasts’ a bit longer too. It’s really a fun journey.
The earlier prints are more of standard development but have a nice lith shift.
I’ve become pretty comfortable with a snatch if I’ve found the right area to look at.
If so, I just skip to another negative. I can get that satisfied even without dodging and burning.
If you keep going with more prints or longer time of dev just sitting(oxidizing), you will get the more lithy look.
I’m not using old brown, just mix it and go for a run with a negative, then toss.
A 'run' can be 3-4 prints or 10. I haven't gone that far but it all depends on what you are after and how lithy you want it. I find myself sometimes just wanting to use it more as a normal developer and stopping.
As with regular lith, it will get to a point of 'who knows what will happen'...

The Arista powder costs $18 and makes a gallon each of A and B.
So it’s really pretty cheap compared to paper if you make it a 3-4 shot dev, especially for a nice tone and a lot of fun. The tone can shift depending on how much light you feed it. It's very warm. Tannish, olive out of the fixer.
Selenium is VERY effective. It kind of has it’s own snatch point depending on what you are after. I like to just bring in the blacks a bit and pull it. That’s in the 15-20s range usually.
That’s keeps the warm tone. If you keep going it’s still have a nice tone but will start to get purpley. If you keeeeep going (2min) it will be a deep red/brown.
The dry down is pretty significant, especially if you did Selenium. That’s when you need to know your snatch point. However, if you know how to compensate for it, I think it’s a pretty badass looking print, in hand, compared to all the other normal dev/paper combos I tried.
For those that make lith prints, I think you’ll still have lots of fun with this. I can say that the bleach back in the fixer isn’t as much so look out for that.
I’m very interested in what others experience, especially with other papers.
I'm low on MGWT but I think I have some snippets to tryout. That and a couple of others I'm curious about, so I continue to update. I like fomatone but never cared too much for the pinks. The stronger the developer got, the bigger the shift away.
However, it's difficult to scan because of the velvety sheen. Here are two from last night with parameters above, ~20s in selenium (thinking of diluting for more control, it's 1:10). It's also hard to get the right tone on the scanner.....These are straight with no dodging or burning. It may be hard to see but the second one held the shadows well and it was a low light exposure.

Nice work, Scott. I have only tried briefly with strong lith developer, and had trouble with the paper I was using (Agfa Record Rapid), so I stopped not wanting to spend any more of that precious paper.

I have a ton of old Kodak paper, which I know will fog terribly if I use strong developer, so that's out of the picture. Foma is something I've eliminated from my darkroom, just because I don't want to have too many different papers. I wonder if regular Ilford MGIV would respond to really strong lith developer...

I prefer strong lith chems, my normal snatch point is around 2 1/2 to 3 min, any longer is a PIA and for me not worth persuing.

With the stronger dev you can play with flash to get many, many looks.

I think overexposure isn't very flattering with this particular mix....
Thomas, I think that was what was happening with MGWT and my splotching.
I plan to test that soon but fomatone is a much slower paper so I get the 1min at f/11
When I tried 1.5 minutes to get the clouds in that first print, the highlights started breaking up.
Not really splotchy like I saw with the MGWT contact printing but I can see they are relatives.
I'm not even sure where I'll start exposing MGWT but I think it's something like 2.5 stops faster than foma.

Bob, I recall seeing your what you used but how strong do you go? Do you warm it up? Mess with contrast filters at all?
The main thing I've been aiming at is getting this tone without bleaching and toning.
Now I want to work with it to get the pop I want.

I love the overpasses... It's a beautiful print with a wonderful color... (i'd love to see that in person)

Sure can get a variety of colors. Thus may be only effective with fomatone for whatever reason. The real grey print is adox vario classic.

Scott

1500 ml A 1500ml B 10 -15 litres of water is my ratio. about 1:5 to 1:8
I do not use filters , I use graded paper whenever possible, with Ilford WT I may use filter, the trick is to pull the print before the blacks start emerging and keep the print moving in the dev, stop (acid) and fix.
The contrast explodes in the fix with Ilford Warmtone, once you figure the method it works every time, Ilford Warmtone tones incredibly.

QUOTE=schrochem;1541120]Bob, I recall seeing your what you used but how strong do you go? Do you warm it up? Mess with contrast filters at all?
The main thing I've been aiming at is getting this tone without bleaching and toning.
Now I want to work with it to get the pop I want.[/QUOTE]

Hey y'all. Really having fun with this strength and this paper. I was/am having fun just cranking out 'contact sheets'. Just chose the ones I sorta liked and hit em. Dev times were close 2:30 to 3:00.
I do want to pop up my high end. So I'm going up 30s on the next film development.

Scott

this is the key to good lith printing, pump up the contrast or lighting ratio of the negative my friends, normal negs are ok but boost the contrast and your world of lith will be complete, screw 20 minute development I yawn just thinking of that method.

The second source flash is what tames the contrast so go for it, I use HC110 with a long dev.... ie I recommend underexpose or normal expose then over develop by one three more stops to build up a very strong neg.
Your flash will become necessary but watch for the creamy beautiful highlight detail to come into your prints at the snatch point..... Ilford Warmtone pre snatch.

schrochem said:

Hey y'all. Really having fun with this strength and this paper. I was/am having fun just cranking out 'contact sheets'. Just chose the ones I sorta liked and hit em. Dev times were close 2:30 to 3:00.
I do want to pop up my high end. So I'm going up 30s on the next film development.

Scott

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Thanks for the tips Bob. What do you mean by second source flash? Pre flash? If so, with an exposure of 1min what kind of pre flash is a good start?

I've been shooting Delta 100 at 50 and developing in rollo pyro. At 8min it was just a bit too much and I was losing the highest highlights. These were at 7min so I think I'll bump it to 7:30 and see what I get...

I'm really liking this combo because 1min exposure with these negs is giving me a nice print without dodging and burning. Last night I just had to snatch somewhere between 2.5 and 3min depending on the negative. With the volume and size I'm printing I get three 'normalish' prints and then they get lithy. I think this was the fourth on a run last night:

schrochem said:

Thanks for the tips Bob. What do you mean by second source flash? Pre flash? If so, with an exposure of 1min what kind of pre flash is a good start?

I've been shooting Delta 100 at 50 and developing in rollo pyro. At 8min it was just a bit too much and I was losing the highest highlights. These were at 7min so I think I'll bump it to 7:30 and see what I get...

I'm really liking this combo because 1min exposure with these negs is giving me a nice print without dodging and burning. Last night I just had to snatch somewhere between 2.5 and 3min depending on the negative. With the volume and size I'm printing I get three 'normalish' prints and then they get lithy. I think this was the fourth on a run last night:

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I'm not Bob, obviously, but flashing the paper controls your contrast and gives those highlights an opportunity to get proper tone. With this technique, the 8 minute negs would still be ok, and after experimenting, you might prefer even more!

what Thomas said.

I use a second enlarger, or you could set up a hanging bulb with a dimmer to get the right flash. This to me is the key to lith.

Heavy lighting, heavy contrast on the negative, Strong Dev, and a second flash

going into the darkroom today to make lith murals..

This time I am using digital silver enlarged negs made with the Lambda, from Cannon Mark 3 files that have been converted to BW.
I pump up the contrast of the file to output onto the film, the film is processed in big trays in my darkroom.
I see this as a very strong DEFEND THE DARKROOM application of digital and traditional. For those with limited space one only needs a contact set up.

do not tell the APUG police here that I said this though I do not want to get banned.:munch:

Thanks thomas and bob. I made a test strip last night and was able to get a wedge. I read 'somewhere' to use the step below when it's just apparent so it leaves room for the actual exposure. I only did one neg and didn't get what I was after. I need to try another neg that I know quite well and maybe increase the flash. I can see what you mean Thomas about maybe prefering those 8 min negatives. I know it's close with this pre flashing. I need to look at the neg to make sure there is even something there and it's not just developed out.
Bob, that sounds very cool and something I've wanted to try very much. Every time I look into digital neg my head starts spinning. I have an old epson 2200 that's been collecting dust for years and have no idea of the print head condition.....
Anyway, have fun today. I'm thinking about jumping in the darkroom also.

I like this pre flashing. It's really helped with the highlights that still have some detail. I'll post a print later. I skipped the selenium because I was getting good enough blacks and loved the color with the pre flash. It's nice for the blacks but it quickly shifts the highlight colors. Not to a bad extent but I like the current tone without.

I went ahead and tried ld20 in the same proportions and it was very different. Developed twice as fast. It also gave a more lith look with the mids having color but the highs lacked it. While a cool effect it's not what I'm looking for really.

Scott

Here's the arista with a preflash. I was able to get highlight detail in the bark and some in the ground to the left.


Here is the LD20 with a preflash. Like I said the highlights are too much of a shift in tone for my taste.

schrochem said:

Here's the arista with a preflash. I was able to get highlight detail in the bark and some in the ground to the left.

Here is the LD20 with a preflash. Like I said the highlights are too much of a shift in tone for my taste.

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Scott,

The intensity and duration of preflash determines whether you get highlight detail or not. It isn't necessarily the developer's characteristics alone; you have to think about it as a system.

With more practice using LD20 I bet you could get highlight detail with it too.

Looks like you're having fun! I might try some tonight, provided I can finish my homework first. Ugh.

Thanks Thomas, yes I see it as a system. I wanted to show that this 'strong lith' might be more specific than I thought and for my taste it seems like the quantity of Arista A and B and Fomatone are what I'm liking. Throw in a different paper or a different kind of lith developer and the results could be quite different.
I'm sure I could tame the LD20 prints if I spent some time with it. i was using the same exposure and preflash as the arista so I knew it would be different. I guess I need to see if I tacked down the specific wants of the LD maybe the end result would be similar. But Arista is so much cheaper ;-)
and I think your right about liking the 8min neg...this is one of my trial ones when I shot each photograph at iso 100 and then iso 50 and developed 8min. I definitely like the shadow detail I get with the 50 and was able to keep the highlights in with pre-flashing.
Do you always pre-flash? I'm wondering because maybe that's a variable I never tried with MGWT and maybe with pre flash I won't get the splotches....might try that tonight.

schrochem said:

Thanks Thomas, yes I see it as a system. I wanted to show that this 'strong lith' might be more specific than I thought and for my taste it seems like the quantity of Arista A and B and Fomatone are what I'm liking. Throw in a different paper or a different kind of lith developer and the results could be quite different.
I'm sure I could tame the LD20 prints if I spent some time with it. i was using the same exposure and preflash as the arista so I knew it would be different. I guess I need to see if I tacked down the specific wants of the LD maybe the end result would be similar. But Arista is so much cheaper ;-)
and I think your right about liking the 8min neg...this is one of my trial ones when I shot each photograph at iso 100 and then iso 50 and developed 8min. I definitely like the shadow detail I get with the 50 and was able to keep the highlights in with pre-flashing.
Do you always pre-flash? I'm wondering because maybe that's a variable I never tried with MGWT and maybe with pre flash I won't get the splotches....might try that tonight.

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Scott,

I don't use preflash very much. Somehow my negs never seem to need it. Sometimes I do, however, if the neg is too high in contrast.
I want to be able to print in regular chemistry too, so I can't push my film too far. 95% of what I print is standard b&w.

Good luck!

Think of the pre flash as a tool, I first start out trying to make a good lith print with no pre flash, certain papers will help as well.

once I have determined that no matter what I do the image is too strong then I will expose the print normally
and then do a step off or test strip on the paper using a second enlarger with the lens racked right out of focus.
I make my steps generous starting from little light to lots of light.
I then process this paper as normal , pull the print when the blacks start exploding and then look to see which step I like best for the highlights and that becomes my flash.

Lith printing is very complex and different in every darkroom, what works for some will not work for others. It takes years to get predictable and then the fun is gone.

I stopped lith printing for a few years as it was not fun to do any more, now with the digital negs I am having more fun.


Here is a basic breakdown of a typical session when I am having fun with lith.

I will use two enlargers with negatives in them.
I will mix a strong lith dev, acid fix and fix as always
I will set up a third enlarger for flash
I will pick two or three papers to play with.
Print agitation is most important not to get flow marks.

Starting with the least favourite negs for the day I will start printing with no flash

I will then introduce flash if needed, I will switch back and forth enlargers until I reach a print on each I am happy with.
Then I will introduce different papers just for shits and giggles to see how I like the new prints.

Once the first set of prints are done I will start switching to the main negatives I like... Now for petes sake try to keep your negatives consitant for
this printing session .. otherwise you need to start from scratch each time you put a neg in the enlarger. If you are printing the same series then your day starts getting easy as each neg has the same characteristics as the last, no test strips just print and pull when happy.

I have hot water on the side to bring up areas fast for eveness and create density.


The chemicals are now aged nicely , remember I use tons of chemistry for a full day session.
Start playing with different contrasts , flash, papers, tissue to soften, materials to lay on the paper to create texture, you cannot make a mistake here.
I do very dramatic dodges and burns to see what happens, remember the flash will fill in a lot of your clumsyness.
I make light, medium and dark prints..


Then we move to toning... blue toned yesterday and you should see how Art 300 lith's and accepts blue tone..


Lith printing is fun and I doubt anyone will ever tame the process completely as each paper, chemical, negative and water supply will give different results.

Bob, Thanks for the detailed and generous response, it helps tremendously.
I was wondering if you were using LD20? If so I think the 'actual' strength is inline with the Arista dilution I'm using. In the same quantities, the LD was verry, very fast to develop.
Couple of questions. You are using an acidic fix? Or was that acid then fix? How much acetic should this be? I used to make my own at 2% but bought some indicator stuff and I don't think it's strong enough and the damn thing keeps developing....
I have a great negative I've been playing with today. It's really helping me get a grasp on the individual elements and how they work together to the final look.
I like having a snatch point. It feels like i'm contributing a bit more than just the clock telling me. That part is a lot like wet plate except wet plate its all over in 15 to 20s so you have to really pay attention....
It's definitely a lot of fun and creates a really cool print, in my opinion.

Here's one of the prints I made today. It's a crappy iPhone snap of the print in the second fixer, so quality sucks, but this is Ilford Warmtone glossy, 9x12 print on 11x14 paper.
Arista Lith at 250ml A + 250ml B +2,700 ml water + 1,000ml old brown.
Seasoned with three sheets of useless 8x10 until completely black.
Nice grain, and color is untoned as of yet. Got a few test prints that I want to try Moersch MT3 and then selenium, and a couple in just selenium. I'm also curious to see how the paper works in Moersch Carbon.

Nice to see Thomas. What is your usual mix? How much did the tone shift from your more diluted mix to this one?

Here's one from yesterday. I've been skipping the selenium to see what kind of blacks I can get with a better snatch and dry down.

Scott,

I have traditionally mixed 100ml A + 100ml B + 2,800ml h2o + 1,000ml old brown, so about 1+19 or so. The mix of 250ml A + 250ml B + 2,700ml h2o + 1,000ml old brown is more like 1+8.4. So more than double the strength.

While printing, I also tried some really old Kodak paper, and I was surprised to see that it was OK in the stronger mix also. Happy too, because at the weaker dilutions I've had some pretty nasty anomalies in the paper that has looked very poor with respect to grain, etc.

Bold negatives, like Bob says though, is definitely the way to go. Makes a ton of difference. I tried printing a flatter negative, and it just wasn't the same at all.

- Thomas

schrochem said:

Nice to see Thomas. What is your usual mix? How much did the tone shift from your more diluted mix to this one?

Here's one from yesterday. I've been skipping the selenium to see what kind of blacks I can get with a better snatch and dry down.

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I should also add that I got slightly less color in the paper this way (which I am very happy about). The Ilford Warmtone looks better than I can ever remember.

I actually started out the printing session with 150ml A + 150ml B + 2,700ml h2o + 1,000ml old brown, which is a little stronger than normal. But I figured 'what the hell', and poured in another 100ml of each solution. It was a fairly long printing session, about 5 hours, and the developer was still going strong after six 8x10 sheets and eight 11x14. I have a feeling I could have kept going for a while yet, and the colors were getting so warm and cozy for portraiture.