solve my mystery of selenium toner turning purple

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snusmumriken

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Let me get this correct. For TF3, I fix in “ bath one” for 30 sec. then in “ bath two” for 30 sec.. . . Ok got it. How many 8x10 paper do I get out a liter for bath one? How many 8x10 paper for bath two? I’m assuming each has their own container? Do you ever move bath two to bath one And make a fresh “ bath two” ?

The official Ilford advice is to put the print in each bath for half the total fix time. I have an as-yet-unanswered query in to Ilford technical team about this, because I found I was getting staining when I put the prints in the selenium toner, even though I 'moved on' my fixer baths after each darkroom session of printing maybe ten test strips and two or three 16"x12" prints. Uncertainty about the cause of this has resulted in me have a 'belt-and-braces' approach in which I fix prints for 1 min in each bath, wash prints for 10-15 min between fixing and toning (as well as after toning, using toner mixed using Ilford Washaid). This is clearly not very economical with water. All the same, I suspect fixer exhaustion must have been my problem, so I am going to adopt Philippe-George's excellent advice and use silver test papers. Maybe also that Fuji-Hunt fixer.
 

MattKing

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toning, using toner mixed using Ilford Washaid
This approach may speed things slightly, but it is no longer recommended, because it results in greatly reduced capacity for your toner. The washaid runs out of capacity long before the toner would otherwise do so, forcing you to discard the toner part of the mix far too soon.
 
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Not for the sake of controversy, but for the quality of information. Selenium toner can be used to test the completeness of fixation (i.e. residual silver halides) rather than completeness of washing (residual hypo). see:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/selenium-toner-as-fixer-test.68246/
as you (Doremus Scudder) stated yourself:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fixer-testing.156191/#post-2025474

Yes, indeed! My mistake from typing without thinking! The selenium test if for residual silver, not hypo. Sorry for any confusion!

It's really too bad I can't go back and edit my first second post!! (Moderators?)

Doremus
 

MattKing

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It's really too bad I can't go back and edit my first second post!! (Moderators?)
Done - fixed this post too :D.
(best to use the Report Post function if you need something like this - it draws the request to our attention)
 
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A quick word about two-bath fixing and fixer dilution:

The two-bath fixing regime depends on bath one to remove the lion's share of the undeveloped silver halides while the relatively fresh second bath finishes up the job. The reason for the second bath to extend total fixer life. With it, one can safely "overuse" bath one (i.e., use it past its capacity as a single bath) by a factor of around four. The less-than-adequately-fixed prints coming out of bath one near the end of its life are still 80%-90% fixed; there are just some insoluble compounds left in them that bath two takes care of. Since bath two hasn't much work to do, it remains fresh enough to serve as bath one when the original first fix has reached its capacity. So, if you can fix 10 8x10 prints per liter of fix in a one bath regime, you can fix, to the same or better level of permanence, around 40 8x10s per two liters of fix, divided into bath one and bath two. If you then promote the second bath to bath one and mix a new bath two, you can fix another 40 prints, but this time you've only mixed one liter of fix, making things really economical.

The recommendation to use "film-strength" fixer for fiber-base paper is based on the idea that the resulting shorter fixing time will keep the fixer and contaminants from soaking into the paper base and thereby facilitate more rapid and efficient washing. Ilford espouses this method of fixing. Note that Ilford's method requires the use of a wash aid (a good idea in any case!). Without it, wash times would likely be significantly longer.

The problem with two-bath fixing and strong fixer with a one-minute total fixing time is that it is difficult to fix for exactly 30 seconds in each bath, especially with larger prints and longer drain times. And, if one exceeds the 60-second total time, the fixer soaks more into the paper base and requires more washing. IIRC, 90 seconds is about the time it takes to fully saturate the paper base with fixer, so there's not much leeway.

I find it easier to fix with "paper-strength" fixer when using two-bath fixing. The times are longer so the paper base gets saturated and requires a longer wash time. Still, once the paper base is saturated, a few extra seconds in the fix doesn't make any difference to the wash time. I use Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam at the 1+9 dilution for 1.5-2 minutes per bath. If I need a little extra drain time, I don't worry, and, since I transfer prints directly from the second fix to the toner, I like to make sure they are well-drained so I carry over as little fixer as possible to the toner.

Note that the fixer capacity does not change for the two dilutions. Fixer capacity depends on the build-up of by-products, not exhaustion of the fixer compounds itself. A stronger dilution gives shorter times and vice-versa. With two-bath fixing and "print-strength" fixer, there is even more economy and fixing is not compromised.

TF-4 should be able to be used in a similar way.

Testing your fixing regime isn't difficult at all. Use the selenium toner test or Kodak ST-1 to test for residual silver (adequate fixing) and the Kodak HT-2 test to test for residual hypo (adequate washing) Test once to find the limits of your regime, add a safety factor and then test the last print through the fix each session regularly as a control.

Best,

Doremus

P.S: Thanks to Matt for correcting my misinformation about the selenium toner test for residual silver in post #20.
 
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Done - fixed this post too :D.
(best to use the Report Post function if you need something like this - it draws the request to our attention)

Thanks Matt! I'll try not to have to notify you in the future, but if I do, I know how to get your attention now. I wasn't sure that such requests were welcome.

Doremus
 

snusmumriken

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This approach may speed things slightly, but it is no longer recommended, because it results in greatly reduced capacity for your toner. The washaid runs out of capacity long before the toner would otherwise do so, forcing you to discard the toner part of the mix far too soon.

Matt, I haven't yet grasped how Ilford Washaid works. Ilford describe it as a hypo-eliminator working by ion exchange (whatever that is), yet I think I read somewhere that it is very different from the sodium sulphite type of HCA and basically a detergent. Still, Ilford describes its 'capacity' once diluted as 7 working days, so I take your point. Then again, if the Washaid part 'fails' after 7 days, are you any worse off than if you had mixed the toner with water in the first place? Why does it force you to discard the toner? (I ask out of ignorance, I'm certainly not arguing a case!)

I'm also now wondering how long I can leave diluted Washaid in the special slot of my Nova print washer, or in bottles, if I am not actually printing? Does '7 working days' mean 7 calendar days, or 7 printing sessions no matter how many days apart they are?
 

MattKing

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The Toner on its own can be indefinitely replenished, so if you don't mix Washaid in with it, it can essentially last forever.
And here is a page from the Ilford Washaid MSDS - it is essentially sodium sulfite:
upload_2021-10-20_13-12-52.png
 

snusmumriken

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The Toner on its own can be indefinitely replenished, so if you don't mix Washaid in with it, it can essentially last forever.
And here is a page from the Ilford Washaid MSDS - it is essentially sodium sulfite:
View attachment 288654

OK, I am convinced! I shall change my practices. Thanks. I might even just use sodium sulphite rather than having a rapid throughput of Washaid (and all that packaging).

Sodium laureth sulphate rang a bell, as a commonly listed among hair shampoo ingredients? It seems to be a surfactant/foaming agent. Any idea what the third ingredient with the very long name might be doing? I guess it isn't necessarily the least important just because there's less of it than the sulphite.
 
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To add to the wash-aid discussion: It's most effective if used after thorough rinsing, not right after fixing as someone described in this thread! Something about the sulfite ions needing to be the vast majority for ion exchange to be effective iirc.
 

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To add to the wash-aid discussion: It's most effective if used after thorough rinsing, not right after fixing as someone described in this thread! Something about the sulfite ions needing to be the vast majority for ion exchange to be effective iirc.

Jus a little question: do you make a difference between rinsing and washing?
I ask this because, after fixing, I just rinse the print by spraying 20°C water over it (recto-verso) with a (garden-) water hose...
I never got a problem doing this, but I am always eager to refine my work flow!
 
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Jus a little question: do you make a difference between rinsing and washing?
I ask this because, after fixing, I just rinse the print by spraying 20°C water over it (recto-verso) with a (garden-) water hose...
I never got a problem doing this, but I am always eager to refine my work flow!
I was not differentiating. We could say "rinse first, then wash"? What I do know is that your rinsing is certainly the best first step as it removes a large portion of fixer. There must be a specific point in washing where the wash aid step is most effective. What I've read is that it must be quite far along, I think I read after several minutes of washing. I and maybe you should check the wash-aid instructions.
 

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My so called "wash-aid" isn't really what it's called, it's just 2% sodium sulfiet, and it is meant to be some kind of preparatoir for the KRST bath.
After a two bath no acetic fix, the rinsing (water hose @20°C), then 2% Na2SO3, then KRST and then the final wash (15 min running water @ 20°C) to end in SISTAN for 2 min. So, I think that the final wash mainly removes KRST...
I am doing this for nearly 20 years now, and never a print (FB) degraded.
An AGFA engineer told me to do so, he also told me that acids are the real enemy as these are hard to wash out the gelatine.
 

Philippe-Georges

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According to the Image Permanence Institute at the RIT (yes Rochester...), a tiny amount of residual hypo after the final wash should help the archivability of the FB print.

Yes, Michael_r, I used to apply the sodium carbonate bath and I should do it again, but I wonder if after KRST it is really important.
 
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