Silverfast 8: 16bit grey scale?

jrickards615

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Hi:

I've had my Bronica GS-1 for just shy of a year and am finally getting to work on scanning the 12 or so B&W rolls I've developed. My computer was purchased as a Win10 machine but I've added Linux to a separate partition so I'm running both (at different times of course). My father, before he passed away, gifted me his Epson V600 that I'm running on Win10 (because Linux film scanning isn't that great at the moment). I tried Epson Scan software and it worked but something made me want to try something different. VueScan was better and then I tried the free Silverfast 8 and it is great, I'll probably buy version 9 SE or SE Plus.

However, in version 8, the grey scale option is shown as 16->8bit. I'm quite happy with the scans but I'd really like to scan to 16bit GS, not 8bit.

Does anyone know if version 9 scans to 16bit?

Thanks
 

grat

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Don't know if it applies to the V600, but I was able to upgrade Silverfast the next tier (which gives full 16 bit) for a discount, because I have a V800.
 

Alan9940

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To get 16 bit scanning with Silverfast you have to upgrade to Ai or Studio. Silverfast SE and SE+ are 16>8, 48>24 for RGB all versions.

Don't know if it's scanner specific, but I scan 16-bit gray HDR raw with my Minolta 5400 II and Silverfast SE all the time. Then, I use the ColorPerfect plugin to convert for editing.
 
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Which post-processing program do you edit in? Some like Elements don't provide complete processing above 8 bits. So upgrading your scanner software to get 16 bits might not help you. I used my V600 with Epsonscan at 16 bits and edited with Lightroom which also handles 16 bit. Currently, I upgraded to an Epson V850 and still use Epsonscan and Lightroom at 16 bits color and BW.
 

250swb

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I definitely wouldn't use (or pay for) Silverfast if I can just download Epson Scan. It's actually quite a good no nonsense scanning software, not something you'd normally expect from the manufacturer! And no problems in scanning in 16 or 8 bit. Given in a final scan before going into Lightroom/Photoshop you want the software to interfere with your scan as little as possible (turn everything off such as sharpening etc.) Silverfast is way over the top.
 

grat

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I definitely wouldn't use (or pay for) Silverfast if I can just download Epson Scan.

My V800 came with both. I evaluated both, and very rapidly switched to SilverFast. The interface is a bit clunky at first, but it's more straightforward, and easier to customize on a per-frame basis while still handling batch scanning.
 

George Collier

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You could try using the version of SF that you have, long enough to learn how to use it, sans 16 bit. Then do the same with the Epson software (does it do 16 bit?)
If you can appreciate the difference between the functionality in the two software programs, then buy the upgrade (my experience is like shutterfinger and grat). I think I upgraded with what came with my Epson V 850 Pro for a bit less or more than $100 USD.
For me, the difference in SF over Epson (which I used for almost 2 decades with an older scanner (4990?) is so significant to me it was an easy decision. (Like working on a car with a box full of tools vs a hammer, pair of pliers, and a screwdriver.)
Everyone is different - some can work on a car with a hammer, pair of pliers, and a screwdriver and do everything they want. (and maybe some vise-grips )
 
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My V800 came with both. I evaluated both, and very rapidly switched to SilverFast. The interface is a bit clunky at first, but it's more straightforward, and easier to customize on a per-frame basis while still handling batch scanning.
If SF is more clunky, how can it also be more straightforward than Epsonscan?
 
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SF that came with my V850 was a loss leader. SF forces you to upgrade at additional cost because the SF version that comes with the scanner does not handle 16 bit or ColorNeg. The other thing is if you do most of your edits in post with PS or LR, which I recommend, you don't need a fancy scan program. Doing edits for the scan locks in the results. If you want to change anything, you have to rescan which is a waste of time. Other than black and white points (levels) I save all other edits with Lightroom after the scan. Why spend all that time learning SF which is basically another editing program?

In any case, I've found Epsonscan more than sufficient in the ten years I've used it. Also, Epsonscan is forever and wherever. If you change computers, upgrade computers, or use a second computer, you need to buy another version of SF each time. Epsonscan is free.
 

grat

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If SF is more clunky, how can it also be more straightforward than Epsonscan?

The interface is a bit clunky at first,

I would have thought the subordinate clause would have made it apparent that initially, the interface is somewhat clunky, but after use and understanding, it is much easier to use than Epson Scan.

Further, the version of SilverFast (SE) that came with my V800 did in fact, handle Color Negatives, and while you couldn't create your own color curves, most of the existing curves in Negafix worked just fine, so I'm not sure why you say it can't do ColorNeg.

There is some confusion as to whether it can create 16 bit greyscale, and frankly, I'd rather not downgrade my software to find out. I do note that early Epson scans in my archives claim to be 16 bit grayscale, but only contain 256 unique bits.

Finally, SilverFast is not an editing program.
 
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I would have thought the subordinate clause would have made it apparent that initially, the interface is somewhat clunky, but after use and understanding, it is much easier to use than Epson Scan.
My last marriage was clunky too, at first.
 
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Silverfast SE 8 and 9 supports 48/16 bit RAW data. The AI Studio supports 48/16 bit images.
I don't understand the difference. Could you clarify?
 

alanrockwood

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Not quite an answer to your question but if you can see noise and/or grain in the 8 bit scans then you won't actually gain anything useful by scanning in 16 bit. The noise and/or grain will effectively act as dithering, which will eliminate banding, which is the main theoretical objection against 8 bit scanning. Another theoretical objection is the (related) issue of dynamic range. However, the same comment (effective dithering effect) applies here as well.

However, after an 8 bit scan you should convert the image to 16 bit using your image processing software before doing any manipulation of the image. Otherwise processing artifacts can creep into the image due to roundoff errors.
 
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Silverfast SE 8 and 9 supports 48/16 bit RAW data. The AI Studio supports 48/16 bit images.
What is the difference between RAW data and images?
 
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I scan my V850 at 16 bits and notice I can see what looks like grain in Tmax 400 but not Tmax 100. What does that mean relative to your point?

(If you click on the images they will zoom in to see the detail better in the skies)
4x5 Tmax 400 at 16 bits https://www.flickr.com/photos/alank...43ZPF-2k44Fak-2k43ZPq-2jcarE6-2jcbMjA-2jcbMiJ
4x5 Tmax 100 at 16 bits https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/49843392888/in/album-72157714124881023/
 

Alan9940

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What is the difference between RAW data and images?

I certainly can't speak to what fs999 meant by his/her comment, but I've used Silverfast software for all my scanning needs for over 20 years and my understanding is that raw data (what Silverfast refers to as HDR raw) is a linear, uncorrected file (similar to a raw file from a digital camera), while "images" to me would be gamma-encoded, color corrected output for downstream editing. Typically, with Silverfast HDR raw one must first do a conversion with something like Silverfast HDR software, ColorPerfect plugin (Photoshop), or NegativeLabPro (Lightroom.) Then, final editing is completed, as needed. Does this help?
 
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Thanks for your post. So SF Ai Studio can not give you RAW (flat) files where no adjustments are done before the scan? Do you have to upgrade to SF 8 or 9? I have SF that came with my V850. But I've been using Epsonscan since I'm familiar with it and have used it for ten years with my previous scanner, an Epson V600. I basically do edits after the scan in Lightroom.
 

MattKing

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A RAW data file would be something that you would have to process before you could even view it as an image.
The sort of file that would be suitable for bulk scanning with subsequent bulk automatic conversions applied.
It could, for instance, be used to apply customized orange mask removal and inversion adjustments to scans from colour negatives.
Or an automatic correction process for bulk scanned faded and discoloured colour slides.
 

Alan9940

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SF Ai Studio 8 must definitely can scan to a 16-bit or 48-bit raw file (it's what I currently use.) Actually, you can scan to a 64-bit raw file, if your scanner supports an IR channel. Where the confusion comes in is that lower-level software (like SE) can scan HDR raw or into a standard 8-bit image (not a 48-bit image) whereas the Studio Ai version has no such limitations. I primary scanning needs is B&W film and I scan 16-bit HDR raw with Studio Ai on my Epson scanner and Silverfast SE on my Konica/Minolta 5400 II.
 

alanrockwood

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The important thing is whether there is noise in the scan. The noise could come from a combination of film grain and other sources. The other sources could include (but not limited to) sensor noise or even shot noise.

Shot noise comes from the quantized nature of light in combination with the statistics of photon detection, and in theory it can show up at low signal levels. I don't know if shot noise is a factor in scanners, but I would not be surprised if it is. To give you an idea of how the statistics work, the standard deviation is equal to the square root of the number of photons. For example, if 100 photons are detected then the standard deviation is 10 photons. Suppose that the analog to digital step size at low signal levels is equivalent to ten photons. In that case shot noise would be more than enough to produce effective dithering. It would also apply at high signal levels. For example, if a high signal level were equivalent to detecting 10,000 photons the standard deviation would be 100, so if the step size were 10 photons it would be more than enough to produce effective dithering.

Sensor noise (as distinct from shot noise) is very likely at low signal levels. This can come from various sources, primarily electronic in nature. For example, there is something called thermal noise, which comes from the random thermal motion of electrons. There is also something called flicker noise. Anyway, a lot of scanner reviews talk about the existence of noise in the shadows. This probably comes mostly from some combination of sensor noise and shot noise.

None of the noise sources mentioned above go away at high signal levels. They become proportionally less important compared to the signal level if the signal level is high, but from the point of view of how it relates to the effective dithering effect the important comparison is not the comparison to the absolute signal level but rather the comparison to the step size of the analog to digital converter. This means that if there is effective dithering taking place at low signal levels it will also be there at high signal levels.

Things get a little more complicated if a non-linear transformation is applied to the signal somewhere in the signal chain. If so then it is possible that the effective dithering effect might go away due to roundoff error. I am told that when a scanner saves in 8 bit mode there may be a non-linear transformation, and I can't say to much about that possibility. However, I understand that in some signal processing systems when a high-bit word is converted to lower bits the software may add pseudo-random noise in order to make sure that dithering is present. I don't know if this applies to 8 bit scanners.

Now to the question of t-max 100: here is one way you can investigate this experimentally using your own scanner and your own photographs. I'm not talking about your regular photos but rather photos generated specifically for the purpose of testing this. Get some t-max film. Find a perfectly uniform object to photograph, like a blank wall. It will also help if you will defocus the lens to make sure there's no small-scale variability in the image. You might even consider taking the lens off altogether. Take photos of the image. Some at high exposure, some at moderate exposure and some at low exposure. Develop the film.

Scan the images in 8 bit mode. Open a file. Look at the histogram of crop of a very small portion of the image near the center of the image. Zoom in on the histogram (along the horizontal axis) and see if there is just a single spike in the histogram or if you can see several spikes. If there are several spikes then there is significant noise in the image (whether from film grain, sensor noise, or some combination), and that should satisfy the effective dithering requirement. Do this for the blank images that you photographed at various exposure levels.

You could also take a photo of an image having a smooth brightness gradient. Scan in 8 bit mode. Copy the image to form a second identical file. Open one of the copies and do some extreme image manipulation until you can see banding. Next open the second copy and convert it to 16 bits. (That conversion is very important. Leaving it in 8 bit mode will nullify the test.) Next do exactly the same extreme image manipulations that you did on the first file. Do you see banding? if not then the 8 bit scan hasn't hurt anything and you are good to go.

Always remember, if you scan your regular photos in 8 bit mode then be sure to convert them to 16 bit before you do any image manipulation. Keep it in 16 bet mode, preferably forever, but if not forever then at least as long as you are doing any image manipulations on the image.

Now for a question: Why would anyone even want to scan in 8 bit mode? The first answer is that some systems may only allow 8 bit scanning. Leaf brand scanners when used in certain configurations fall into that category. The other reason (not a very strong on these days) is that 8 bit scans save storage space.
 

Kodachromeguy

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Anyway, a lot of scanner reviews talk about the existence of noise in the shadows. This probably comes mostly from some combination of sensor noise and shot noise.
Alan, this is a very interesting response. When I scan black and white negatives, I always use 16 bit, and sometimes do see what looks like noise in the shadow areas. This is worst with thin negatives. My Plustek 7600i scanner allows for multi scan, which is supposed to reduce noise. I am not sure how effective it is. My Minolta Scan Multi scanner lets you choose one, two, four, eight, and 16 multi-passes. I usually use four, but even here, I am not sure how effective it is in reducing noise, or if I am really seeing anything different. I use Silverfast 8 to operate both units.
 
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