Signature Color film- so it's an ECN II process?

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 4, 2021

So I've got two signature color 20 ex. rolls I plan on shooting this summer, but upon a little research, it appears that they are actually recanned Cine films like Seattlefilmworks? (except this is Ferrania cine film). Just want to confirm before I unwittingly dump this on my camera store and mess up their V30.

Second, can anyone estimate an age on these films? neither canister is dated, and there isn't much information online.

Finally... anyone know any interesting anecdotes about the film?

cmacd123 · Apr 4, 2021

can you show us the package, and such, also if possible the back side of the film. 3M Ferrania did not make many Cine films after 3M took over, except for film for making prints. AGFA, Fiji and Kodak Cine Negative generally have a removable anti halo layer which indeed will fowl a regular processing machine.

BTW, Seatle film works did start with Movie negative, but latter repacked a C41 film in their brand cassettes, counting on the user to be unable to get any lab to touch the film in case it was ECN or ECN2

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 5, 2021

it's too dark for me to get a quality image of my films, but I can put up some similar ebay listing images, except I have a 200 and a 100.

there's no process listed on the canister of cassette, however it does say made in italy, finished in america.
when it's not raining, I can get some images of my films.

Wallendo · Apr 5, 2021

You could try cutting off a small piece of the leader and scrubbing it to see if any black material washes off.

Also, look at the film canister itself - this is where processing information is usually printed.

I used Signature Lab a few times, but they ended up making me mad so I stopped using them. I shot a 24 exposure roll of film and actually got 26 exposures out of it. They sent me a nasty note that the film was only designed for 24 exposures and that in the future I should immediately rewind the film after taking the 24th shot. I took that personally and stopped using their service.

Their gimmick at the time was selling 5x7 prints at a 6x4 price. The 5x7's didn't fit into my existing albums.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 5, 2021

Wallendo said:
You could try cutting off a small piece of the leader and scrubbing it to see if any black material washes off.

Also, look at the film canister itself - this is where processing information is usually printed.

I used Signature Lab a few times, but they ended up making me mad so I stopped using them. I shot a 24 exposure roll of film and actually got 26 exposures out of it. They sent me a nasty note that the film was only designed for 24 exposures and that in the future I should immediately rewind the film after taking the 24th shot. I took that personally and stopped using their service.

Their gimmick at the time was selling 5x7 prints at a 6x4 price. The 5x7's didn't fit into my existing albums.

The canister says nothing. Some ecn II still labs do list signature as one such film.
https://www.thecamerashop.com/imagecenter/seattle.html

though the film physically looks like standard c41 film (I may try soaking a small bit later tonight)

Donald Qualls · Apr 5, 2021

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
The canister says nothing. Some ecn II still labs do list signature as one such film.
https://www.thecamerashop.com/imagecenter/seattle.html

though the film physically looks like standard c41 film (I may try soaking a small bit later tonight)

If the film isn't black on the back side, it doesn't have remjet. There are ECN-2 films that don't -- duplicating and print films, for the most part. Often those don't have the orange mask, either, and will not print correctly in old standard "One Hour" processes (though they scan fine as long as the scanner has a correct film profile).

For your soak test, be sure the bath is alkaline; I understand the alkalinity is necessary to release the remjet, if present.

cmacd123 · Apr 5, 2021

Only firm making colour film in Italy was 3M Ferrania. at one time 3M did have a film finishing line in the USA. the canisters in the picture don't look like 3M, which were tapered at an angle - those are straight.

if it was 3M the film is very likely ten years old by now.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 5, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
If the film isn't black on the back side, it doesn't have remjet. There are ECN-2 films that don't -- duplicating and print films, for the most part. Often those don't have the orange mask, either, and will not print correctly in old standard "One Hour" processes (though they scan fine as long as the scanner has a correct film profile).

For your soak test, be sure the bath is alkaline; I understand the alkalinity is necessary to release the remjet, if present.

So, something like this?
or this?

And...
I tried developing some Kodachromes in caffenol last year, yet some K-14s rem jets mostly came off during my water stop bath, which I just used distilled water.

AgX · Apr 5, 2021

cmacd123 said:
if it was 3M the film is very likely ten years old by now.

Based on your assumption that they still made cine films by then.

cmacd123 · Apr 5, 2021

AgX said:
Based on your assumption that they still made cine films by then.

all legacy colour film production at ended sometime between 2008 and 2012.- it is now 2021. more or less a decade. Movie Negative likely ended more than a decade before then. Not sure if 3M even transitioned to ECN or ECN2 movie negative. the earlier colour Negative would have been based on the AGFA technology.

Donald Qualls · Apr 5, 2021

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
I tried developing some Kodachromes in caffenol last year, yet some K-14s rem jets mostly came off during my water stop bath, which I just used distilled water

Yep, that alkaline water should be just about alkaline enough.

I've seen that with Kodachrome, as well -- the alkali of the developer releases the remjet, but if you didn't use a super-agitated alkaline bath first, the stuff will come off in the next bath as much as in the alkaline bath.

The YouTube method of remjet removal seems to be to make a solution of washing soda (sodium carbonate) at developing temperature, pour in, and agitate like you're shaking James Bond's martini for at least two minutes, then rinse until the water runs clear and clean, before developing. You'll still have to scrub the base side with your thumbs and fingers when it comes out of the last bath before wetting agent or Final Rinse, but that ought to remove anything that would otherwise come off in the developer, at least.

FWIW, in commercial cine processing, I understand air is blasted on the film to remove the remjet. Don't know for certain if this is done dry, at the start of the process, or after an alkaline pre-bath, but I don't see the prebath in the ECN-2 process literature, so I presume it's dry.

cmacd123 · Apr 5, 2021

if you look at the ECN-process "Processing KODAK Motion Picture Films, Module 7 Process ECN-2 Specifications" - which I believe is still at https://www.kodak.com/content/produ...ssing-KODAK-Motion-Picture-Films-Module-7.pdf the solution to soften the REM-Jet is called "Prebath" (PB-2 and PB-2R)

the film is treated for 10 seconds at 27C and then washed, also at 27C - but the time depends on the equipment.
Prebath 2
(PB-2)
Water 27 to 38°C (80 to 100°F)
800 mL
Borax (Decahydrated) 3
20.0 g
Sodium Sulfate (Anhydrous)
100 g
Sodium Hydroxide
1.0 g
Water to make
1 L
pH at 25.0°C (77.0°F)
9.25 ± 0.10

Specific Gravity
1.094 ± 0.004

Please folks, Kodak makes all the secrets available in Plain text, (they did not used to do this, you used to have to pay big bucks to get those secrets) read the booklet - also called H-2407 !

their are entire paragraphs on "equipment design" that talk about the steps in "Module 2" also from the same series https://www.kodak.com/content/produ...ssing-KODAK-Motion-Picture-Films-Module-2.pdf on pages 2-6 to 2-10

you may want to download all the modles as they do not seem to be linked from the motion home page any more.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jun 21, 2021

alright, I'm prepping to use the first of the two rolls sometime in the near future. the first one's going to be my iso 200 film. since it looks like signature was founded in 96, you think iso 40 would be a good speed to shoot it? (also, forgot to mention they're both 20 ex. rolls).

Paul Howell · Jun 21, 2021

It's ISO 200 and DX coded, I would be very surprised if its, movie film.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jun 21, 2021

both are dx coded, the base of the 200 kind of looks like tmax. the base of the 100 is a light brown.
as mentioned above, it probably is a duplicating film.
either way, I'm sending them out just to be safe.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jun 21, 2021

The 100 very much looks the same, except for the actual film itself

Donald Qualls · Jun 21, 2021

"Made in Italy" -- that's Ferrania. They produced a lot of store brand films in 35mm, 126, and 110 before their bankruptcy. Like Kodak, their bread and butter was cine film.

cmacd123 · Jun 21, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
"Made in Italy" -- that's Ferrania.

yes, 3M had a US based conversion facility when they owned ferrania, (or IMATION) so "made in Italy" almost certianly will give you a Ferrania film. (the shape f the Film Can is also a tip off for 3M/IMATION film. The Business was mostly in private label film, I have used that sort of film from Arista, Zellers, K-mart and Sears..

beside a dull back coating on teh back, Cine Negative is 95% likly to have B&H perfs.

Donald Qualls said:
Like Kodak, their bread and butter was cine film.

Once 3M took over, the only cine film they really were pushing was movie print film. they did make a lot of specialty film like Microfilm, and xray and Litho film FOR 3M. As well as the color paper that the 3M owned photofinishing labs used.

Wallendo · Jul 13, 2021

Ferrania also made the C-41 film sold by Seattle Filmworks in its latter days. It was labeled “Made in Italy”.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jul 13, 2021

Just got the 200 roll processed, but I don’t have my computer, so I’ll show you how it turned out once I get my laptop back.

hoping to shoot the 100 in the near future

B&Wpositive · Jul 13, 2021

This is interesting. I have 2 unused rolls of Signature Color film frozen, from my days in grade school, and one roll of Seattle Filmworks. I assumed they were all ECN-II. I thought I would need to process them as such, so I have been waiting and waiting (and now, 20+ years after I started waiting, there are finally at-home kits for ECN-II).

I will have to check the info on these (country of manufacturer) and try to determine if they are ECN-II or not. The labels look like the ones in the original posts here.

Thanks for posting this!

Donald Qualls · Jul 14, 2021

Generally, ECN-2 film works in C-41 chemistry, and vice versa. The main relevant difference is the contrast level (ECN-2 process is slightly lower contrast than C-41, because it's intended to be printed to film and that tends to increase contrast) -- and of course the remjet, which most ECN-2 films have and C-41 doesn't. It does no harm to give a C-41 film the "standard" remjet removal prebath (warm sodium carbonate solution and very vigorous agitation, followed by multiple rinses until the rinse water is clear), so either film can be processed in either chemistry with the remjet removal and give acceptable results.

If remjet is present, you'll still need to rub some of it off after processing, but this will at least keep from having spots of the stuff locally inhibit development, bleaching, or fixing...

cmacd123 · Jul 14, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Generally, ECN-2 film works in C-41 chemistry, and vice versa.

in general they will both work, if "Photo Engineer" were still alive he would be emitting an anguished scream around now about the processes being so different that they even use a different colour developer. OTOH, some ECN2 film I did in home made chemicals about 30 or 40 years ago, using CD4 as the developing agent, still scanned nicely last year.

Donald Qualls · Jul 15, 2021

And yet, the whole point of "premoved" remjet on the Cinestill rebranded Vision3 stocks is so they can be processed in regular mini-labs with C-41 chemistry. Yes, there are minor color shifts, which might be significant if you print on RA-4, but since most film users scan their negatives and use digital post processing these days, crossovers are the only unforgivable, unrepairable problem. BTW, E-6 chemistry also uses CD-3 (the developing agent in ECN-2); you could probably improvise with using E-6 color developer for ECN-2 films, though it might require some tests to arrive at a dilution, time, and temp combination that gives the best negatives.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jul 16, 2021

OK, just got my computer back.
it's late, I'm tired, and hopefully the color balances are pretty good, but here's a random sample. the whole thing was shot at iso 40

they all turned out real nice, it'll be interesting to see what the 100 looks like

Signature Color film- so it's an ECN II process?

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