Separating old negatives stuck together

[Romanko]

Great work, looks like they were taken in Queensland

I don't know for sure where the images were taken. They are part of a family archive. The other negatives were in a much better condition. They were found in a Kodak print envelope stamped RIEFFENBERG(?) PHARMACY - KEMPSEY. Some images were indeed taken in Kempsey and have Macleay River Railway Bridge in the background. The photos appear to be taken in the 1950s.

 

[LLF]

No problem, this is what this thread is for.

I used standard Photo Flo solution (1 + 200). The negatives were placed in a jar with the solution in an upright position. I let them soak for 2 or 3 days in the fridge. I changed the solution once or twice. The goal is to soften the emulsion enough to separate the sheets but not too much to lose adhesion to the substrate. There is no guarantee that this is always possible, but it worked for me to some extend.

The best advice I can give you is to be patient and handle the negatives very gently. It is very tempting to start separating them before they have soaked enough. This is how I ruined the first frame. Good luck and please share you experience in this thread.

Thank you this is very helpful. I do not know much about Photo Flo, do I use distilled water and how much Photo Flo? It is winter here, does it need to be in the refrigerator if its pretty cool right now? Do you have any tips for how to check if the negatives are releasing? Did you use a tool to gently separate or did you just let them separate on their own? I only have one shot at it, so if you are able to give me any tips I would greatly appreciate it!

 

[Bushcat]

This process indicates why the local "Disaster Reclamation Company" get the BIG insurance dollars that they do for just what you did.

They have a team of 3-5 people that "Recover from fire/flood damage" photos and negatives. It's been a few years since I was there. They probably went out business because insurance companies quit paying for such restoration services.

Only tangentially relevant, but you may be interested in Fujifilm's activities after the Great East Japan Earthquake. The Japanese-language pages are better, in that they also cover more recent disasters. https://photo-rescue.fujifilm.com/en/

 

[Two23]

I'm thinking the photos were taken with a Kodak Brownie. They have that look and it was a very popular "family" camera at that time.


Kent in SD

 

[Sirius Glass]

Thank you this is very helpful. I do not know much about Photo Flo, do I use distilled water and how much Photo Flo? It is winter here, does it need to be in the refrigerator if its pretty cool right now? Do you have any tips for how to check if the negatives are releasing? Did you use a tool to gently separate or did you just let them separate on their own? I only have one shot at it, so if you are able to give me any tips I would greatly appreciate it!

PhotoFlo is a surfactant that helps the film shed water while drying. There are several strengths of PhotoFlo so follow the instructions on the bottle.

Welcome to APUG Photrio!!​

 

[Romanko]

do I use distilled water and how much Photo Flo? It is winter here, does it need to be in the refrigerator if its pretty cool right now? Do you have any tips for how to check if the negatives are releasing? Did you use a tool to gently separate or did you just let them separate on their own? I only have one shot at it, so if you are able to give me any tips I would greatly appreciate it!

Use 1 or 2 ml Photo Flo to 200 ml of distilled water, basically, half a tea spoon per litre would do the job. The exact amount is not important.

I wanted to avoid bacterial growth in the emulsion so I kept the jar with the negatives in the fridge. You can keep it at room temperature if it is moderately cool. You can add some ethanol (10-15%) to the solution to prevent bacterial growth as well. Wear gloves to protect the negatives from your fingers and your fingers from the chemicals in the solution. I used tweezers to gently pry the sheets apart but only when they soaked enough and started separating on their own. You will notice the change of color at the edges of the outmost sheets as the solution starts penetrating between the negatives.

Once again, be very gentle and do not force the negatives apart. I would say two days in the solution is the minimum. I noticed that my solution darkened a bit when the emulsion started to dissolve near the edges.

Finally, feel free to ask more questions.

 

[LLF]

UPDATE: tried Romanko's method, and within an hour all the emulsion dropped off the substrate, and anything the water touched, became an inky mess-and apparently it didn't take very long at all to get between the layers. Oh well it was worth a try as I didn't need a doorstop. They were from 1910 and had suffered previous water damage I think so probably just not as robust as what Romanko had. It's fine I have a lot of others from this set, its just these 6 had been stacked on top of each other and the others weren't.

 

[Romanko]

Sorry to hear that it didn't work. My negatives were from the 1950s. The technology of coating cellulose in 1910s was far less advanced. Also, in 113 years even the best-preserved negatives would normally show signs of degradation. Thanks for sharing your results.

 

[eli griggs]

What are the chances these are nitrate negatives and are they "v" or "u" notched?

 

[Romanko]

had suffered previous water damage

I suspect my negatives were stored in a high-humidity environment (typical for the region). Its effect would be different from direct water damage.

What are the chances these are nitrate negatives

The chances are high. LLF would now have a few clean film substrates that could be tested. There are several methods available from spectroscopy to floating test to burn test. CAUTION! Research cellulose nitrate film before attempting any burn tests (the material is highly flammable and emits toxic gases while burning).

It's fine I have a lot of others from this set

If they are nitrate-base they require special storage. Do not store together with acetate base negatives (most modern film).

 

[Kino]

The best storage is in a cool, moderately dry atmosphere but DO NOT seal the container unless you are going to put them in cold storage.

Gasses need to escape; trap the gas, cause a problem.

 

[NMLzzz]

I also have some negatives from the 1910s. I know this is asking for speculation , but wondering if using straight distilled water might be the best thing to try first?

Appreciate suggestions.

 

[Don_ih]

I know this is asking for speculation , but wondering if using straight distilled water might be the best thing to try first?

Probably. If they're nitrate negatives, which they almost certainly are, they've probably glued themselves to each other due to deterioration. If they come apart, you may find the images are gone, anyway. The material itself is volatile and a bit of a hazard.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I have 6x9 cm negatives from probably 1930s that were stored in an envelope for decades and stuck/glued together, see pictures. What would you try to separate them? I was going to try soaking in distilled water, photoflo solution or ethanol (stock or diluted). Any other ideas? View attachment 293202 View attachment 293203 View attachment 293201

You must be very brave now. THEY ARE GONE BEYOND REPAIR or FUBAR, as some say. I'm very sorry about your loss. Only hope: throw them into clear water and leave them undisturbed until they separate by themselves, but chances are, the emulsion will be heavily damaged, and the images will be lost.

 

[Romanko]

How many negatives do you have that are stuck together? How valuable are they?

X-ray tomography was successfully used to restore a roll of movie film that literally melted into a disk:

'You Can't See the Join!' - Recovering Morecambe and Wise (Part 1)

A 'film-eating disease', a small town in Nigeria, dentistry, algorithms and a laser. How did they all play a part in recovering a lost episode of their BBC show?

www.bbc.co.uk

I am not suggesting that you should do the same. However, if the negatives are valuable there can be some non-destructive ways to scan them. I am not sure if this would work but transmitted light 3D microscopy could potentially be useful.
The negatives are 110 years old and I would treat them with respect. You can always soak them in the jar of distilled water and hope for the best but I would recommend you do rush it and do your research first.

A photo of the negatives would be helpful.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Surprisingly, I had some success separating the negatives. I lost some emulsion at the edges of each frame but the rest was preserved. I did exactly what you suggested: left the stuck negatives in a photo flo solution for several days. We are heading into the summer in Australia with the daily temperatures above 30 oC so I put the negatives in a jar and kept it in the fridge for a couple of days agitating gently once or twice a day. (Disclaimer: My wife is a former chemist. Your mileage can differ significantly when you decide to put photographic chemicals in a family fridge). I left the negatives in the solution (still cold) and letting it slowly come to room temperature before hanging the negatives to dry. I'll post the pictures once they are dry and safe to scan.

Is there anything I can do at this stage to further preserve them? Would you harden them? I personally don't think it is necessary but I would like to hear your opinions.

Thanks a lot for your replies. Even the most pessimistic comments were strangely encouraging, sort of "go ahead, there's nothing to lose".

Regards,
Romanko

Romanko, I;m sure you can convince your wife about using the family fridge by reminding her that 30 degrees water and old negatives are a perfect breeding ground for all kind of nasties otherwise.

 

[Romanko]

Romanko, I;m sure you can convince your wife about using the family fridge by reminding her that 30 degrees water and old negatives are a perfect breeding ground for all kind of nasties otherwise.

Thank you, Ralph. No questions were asked. I now have my own fridge in the garage for storing film (and sauerkraut).