Separate Bleach and Fix for RA4?

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koraks

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That means if I hold the paper long enough in a weak/old developer it should come out correctly?

No, weak or expired/oxidized developer in my experience works very badly.

You can get acceptable prints (although that's a bit subjective) at room temperature with fresh and/or properly replenished chemistry.

your special RA4 kit

I use standard Fuji minilab chemistry; it's not special :smile: Regular dilution etc. Everything by the book, except in the time I did the video I developed longer than the 45 second default RA4 time and at room temperature. These days I usually use a roller transport processor at 35C, but sometimes I still use room temperature development, with the exact same chemistry. Both approaches work fine.

Ever tried safelight for cutting/placing the paper?

Yes. Sufficient light to work by invariably fogs the paper in my experience. A safelight is possible , but needs to be so dim that in my opinion it's not very useful. Fortunately, you get used to working in the dark quite easily and it's not as difficult as it seems at first.
 

kfed1984

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I use standard Fuji minilab chemistry; it's not special :smile: Regular dilution etc. Everything by the book, except in the time I did the video I developed longer than the 45 second default RA4 time and at room temperature. These days I usually use a roller transport processor at 35C, but sometimes I still use room temperature development, with the exact same chemistry. Both approaches work fine.
can I consider RA4 process as development to completion? Maybe if I hold long enough at room temperature it will work out. What will happen if you develop longer than 45 seconds at 35C, lets say if you hold it for 5 min at 35C in the developer? Or the statement of reaction to completion applies more for the bleach/fixer?
 

koraks

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RA4 process as development to completion?

To an extent, but not in an absolute sense.
Bad chemistry will give bad results. I can guarantee this; I've run into this several times myself during experiments.

What will happen if you develop longer than 45 seconds at 35C, lets say if you hold it for 5 min at 35C in the developer?

Try it out, but ultimately you'll get a combination of fogged whites, wonky contrast, poor color rendition/crossover etc.

Why go there? There's no need. The "to completion" comment should be taken as with b&w prints. If you excessively overdevelop those, you run into trouble as well (or "creative opportunities" if you will).
 

halfaman

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how do the prints look in color/quality/blacks ? What kind of machines use this paper today and the larger rolls? Do they still make these printers or this paper is being consumed by printers that are slowly becoming extinct?

The quality is very nice but I don't see the advertised advantages compared to DPII of higher Dmax and extended gamut. They were just a couple of proof prints I ordered to a lab (Whitewall), so my judgment is very limited.

I think that Chromira, Noritsu and Colenta still make and sell RA4 printers. A local professional lab in my city has and uses Chromira printers.
 

koraks

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I think that Chromira, Noritsu and Colenta still make and sell RA4 printers.

I think Colenta only makes RA4 processors, but they are indeed back in that business.
ZBE apparently still makes their Chromira machines, and then there are Imaging Solutions, Fuji with their Frontier series and Polielettronica. I think that's currently the market. Polielettronica is the least well-known of the bunch, but might be the most interesting from a technological viewpoint. AFAIK they're the only ones with an active interest in taking RA4 printing beyond 300dpi, but don't quote me on that.
 

halfaman

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I think Colenta only makes RA4 processors, but they are indeed back in that business.
ZBE apparently still makes their Chromira machines, and then there are Imaging Solutions, Fuji with their Frontier series and Polielettronica. I think that's currently the market. Polielettronica is the least well-known of the bunch, but might be the most interesting from a technological viewpoint. AFAIK they're the only ones with an active interest in taking RA4 printing beyond 300dpi, but don't quote me on that.

Yep, Colenta is just an RA4 processor. Noritsu claims that their last printers have 640x640 dpi resolution.
 

kfed1984

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It's unclear how this moniker relates to the current Fuji paper lineup I'm aware of, i.e. the papers that are in both (very comprehensive) sample packs I have on my desk, and the papers listed on the originalphotopaper.com website.

Just watched your video again and since my RA-4 paper is in the mail I wanted to ask this: for the developer and blix replenishment can I simply pour out a bit of my old solution and simply pour the same amount of the fresh solution? The bottles of my RA-4 kit say it is both a developer/replenisher, and the only way I imagine to replenish them is by pouring out a bit of the old solution and pouring in the same amount of the new. If this is the case, can you also use the same technique for C-41 chemistry?

In your video, you mentioned that you are replenishing the developer (somehow) and controlling the pH with potassium hydroxide. Does the potassium hydroxide ever become saturated in your solution? It has to go somewhere I imagine, or maybe you put very little of it and didn't make any impact yet. For each replenishment cycle, what % approximately do you pour out and then pour in, If that is the way you do it? Do you still have the same bottle mix from that 2020 video? Thanks again in advance.
 
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koraks

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can I simply pour out a bit of my old solution and simply pour the same amount of the fresh solution?

Yes, that's the idea. Usually you lose some of the developer anyway due to carry-over into subsequent baths; some of it soaks into the emulsion and sticks to the paper. It makes sense to periodically measure the volume of your developer and take into account the attrition rate as you replenish.

For instance, you may start out with 1000ml of developer at the start of a session.
After 20 sheets or so, you measure the volume again and find there's only 940ml left, so you lost 60ml due to carryover.
Based on the paper usage, you may want to replenish 100ml, but since you've already lost 60ml in carryover, you only need to discard an additional 40ml from the 940ml volume. Then you add 100ml fresh replenisher.

If this is the case, can you also use the same technique for C-41 chemistry?

I suppose so, but to be frank, I'm don't really trust a developer that is the same as a replenisher. I don't see how that would actually work in the long run. It may sort of work for a brief time, but in a proper replenished system, the developer replenisher needs to be more concentrated than the normal developer in order to compensate for losses in the working stock, and it needs to have a lower halide content (especially chloride soaks out of the emulsion into the working developer). As a result, in a system where the developer and the replenisher are identical chemicals, I expect there will be significant drift in activity and probably color balance. This may be OK for RA4 prints where you balance this away with some filter adjustments and may in fact not even notice it in an amateur home lab setting (so don't lose any sleep over it!) With C41, I'd be very hesitant to employ such a system. If you look at big brand mini/big lab chemistry, you'll notice that the starting developer always requires the addition of a starter to an initial volume of replenisher (and some water to make it more dilute), and the subsequent replenisher does not use this starter (or additional dilution).

So long story short: I believe you when you say amateur-oriented manufacturers offer kits that don't distinguish between replenisher and working strength developer, but chemically speaking, this is a doubtful practice.


Does the potassium hydroxide ever become saturated in your solution?

Certainly not! That's what the pH monitoring is/was for. Hydroxide should only be added in tiny amounts and only if you're very sure the pH has somehow drifted downward from the target.

Note that reliable pH meters for typical RA4 developer levels are expensive and somewhat challenging to keep operational/accurate over a longer period of time. I have currently more or less given up on this and just replenish by the manufacturer's specifications. This seems to work fine, so I'd give that a go before making things complicated with pH monitoring and KOH additions (which isn't a definitive answer anyway). So far my experience is that if stored well and replenished according to the specs of Fuji, my Fuji chemistry remains stable enough for me not to notice any particular problems.


Do you still have the same bottle mix from that 2020 video?

Yes, it's now part of a multiple-bottle mix that I use in my RCP20 and occasionally still for tray use :smile: It has been going strong since 2018 or so, I guess. But it's a bit like grandfather's axe: the bottle is the same, the contents have been replaced gradually through replenishment many, many times since then!
Would I recommend this if dead-on consistency from one session to the next is required? Probably not. One shot use is likely the most consistent approach for an amateur setting. But for me, a replenished system works well enough.

Part of the whole color printing thing is also deciding how high you want to set the bar of accuracy and consistency. You can make things really difficult, or keep them relatively easy. I'd suggest starting with the latter and solving problems as/if you run into them.
 

kfed1984

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Yes, that's the idea.
Thank you as usual for the detailed explanation. These conversations help tp keep the materials alive and available. I will probably make YouTube videos of the process myself in the future, and the C-print digital printing services that are available.

I ordered two 12"-wide rolls of Endura glossy and one box of 16x20 Fuji type II 50 sheet box, as the Endura is taking forever on backorder.

Yes the RA-4 says developer/replenisher on each bottle.
1681850010511.png
 

kfed1984

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Looks like Endura paper is not available, but Fujiflex 32" roll appears to be available. I will try to order that and cut it up into sheets or maybe two 16" rolls.
 

koraks

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Keep in mind Fujiflex is not an ordinary paper like the various Crystal Archive papers, or Endura. Fujiflex is a fully synthetic material (not an RC-coated paper) with a very, very strong gloss/sheen. It's a unique product that looks a bit like Cibachrome. It's gorgeous, but if you expect something a little more subtle than Endura, it may be a tad too much. It also has a bit of a tendency to kink especially in larger sizes.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over the Endura not being available at this point. It's not the same Endura that Kodak used to make years ago and apparently this product is a far cry from the original. YMMV of course.
 

kfed1984

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Aside from endura and fuji crystal archive what other good fuji products are out there? Also about RA4 going out of fashion, I read that making very large prints is cheaper and faster with RA4 than with inkjet, and that demand increased. Maybe something to do with demand and supply chain. So the new Chinese endura is no good? When was the last time you tried Crystal archive? Maybe it improved since then. I ordered a box of 16x20 sheets.
 

koraks

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Aside from endura and fuji crystal archive what other good fuji products are out there

All Fuji papers are called 'Crystal Archive', but there are several products in that broader line that are distinguished by different suffixes. For instance there's "Crystal Archive Digital Paper Type DPII", or "Crystal Archive Professional Paper - Maxima" - and a host of others, still. You'll find most/all paper variants here: https://www.originalphotopaper.com/en/products/photographic-papers/
Also about RA4 going out of fashion, I read that making very large prints is cheaper and faster with RA4 than with inkjet, and that demand increased.

Productivity and cost per square meter of RA4 are very competitive and in some segments, such as photo reproduction, superior to alternatives. The exact demand patterns aren't quite clear; apparently the industry rebounded after covid and the Album papers apparently were a successful initiative. As to the long-term perspective - your guess is as good as mine. But that this is a technology that's ultimately on the road to extinction, is something that's very clear to me. With a little bit of luck, it'll take a decade or more before we reach that point.

So the new Chinese endura is no good?

The people at Fuji I spoke to were very concerned about the longevity of the prints. In the words of one engineer: "there's no way those prints will last even a decade". I think that's problematic in the light of the strong reputation Endura still enjoys.
When was the last time you tried Crystal archive? Maybe it improved since then.

Plain Crystal Archive has certainly not 'improved' in any way in about 20 years. It has become more cost effective and probably it has become marginally worse in certain areas. You have to understand that the main development in all RA4 papers is a cost-down trend, which means permanent attempts to shave pennies off of the product left and right. This is never associated with quality improvements; evidently, manufacturers generally attempt to push costs down while keeping quality at acceptable levels. This is certainly true for RA4 paper.
 

kfed1984

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All Fuji papers are called 'Crystal Archive', but there are several products in that broader line that are distinguished by different suffixes.
Speaking of crystal archive, my Type II glossy just came in now, and some 16x20 processing trays. Gonna try it out maybe in the evening when my "darkroom" gets dark enough. When you had poor results with Type II, maybe it wasn't the glossy type? Heard that glossy produces the deepest blacks.

Good to know that we may have a decade to play with this. But you never know, maybe there will be a bigger resurgence in the industry. If Kodak goes out of business, Fuji will have more customers and may stay around longer. The Fuji person you spoke to could be biased naturally against Kodak/China.

Thanks for the link, I will read up on other papers; there's Super C, Super Type PD, DPII, "Preferred", etc. before investing in Fujiflex.
 

koraks

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When you had poor results with Type II, maybe it wasn't the glossy type? Heard that glossy produces the deepest blacks.

I've tried both the glossy and lustre surfaces of the current version of plain CA. The lustre was a little less problematic because the surface finish made the unevenness in large patches of dark tone less visible/objectionable. In general a glossy surface does indeed make blacks look deeper, but that's an unrelated effect to the factors underlying the weak and subtly mottled blacks of this entry-level paper.

Good to know that we may have a decade to play with this.

Ah, I should have been more clear in how I formulated that. I said "With a little bit of luck, it'll take a decade or more before we reach that point." I did NOT say that this product will certainly be around for another decade or more. If Fuji Japan decides next year that RA4 is no longer in their interest, it'll be gone. Fuji Japan have never been transparent to the outside world (and to most of their own subsidiaries for that matter) about their future plans.

If Kodak goes out of business

They have already left this business years ago. "Kodak" paper is made by Sinopromise, which is a company that has no significant ties with Kodak anymore. They have taken over some of the manufacturing technology, but for all intents and purposes, they're just an independent manufacturer from China. They just happen to have the rights to use the Kodak brand name (and Endura along with it).

Also, I wouldn't make too much out of Sinopromise's current role in the larger scheme of things. Apparently their output is scarce and very intermittent. I don't think it'll make much difference to Fuji if no more RA4 paper comes from China anymore.

The Fuji person you spoke to could be biased naturally against Kodak/China.

Of course. But they're also the people who are aware of their customers' business, market conditions, and they sure as heck know how easy (or difficult) it is to obtain 'Kodak' paper. Sometimes people are biased for valid reasons. I get the impression that's very much the case here, based on the evidence they presented me.

Thanks for the link, I will read up on other papers; there's Super C, Super Type PD, DPII, "Preferred", etc. before investing in Fujiflex.

Enjoy :smile: I've got samples of those papers on my desk; some of them are really nice indeed. The Velvet product is unique; I'd love to print on that from time to time. It's pretty much the exact opposite of Fujiflex. Btw, I hope I didn't turn you off of Fujiflex. It's an amazing product in its own right. Just different from the regular papers.
 

kfed1984

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Seems to have worked out after a few tries. The most complicated part was cutting the paper in the dark in my bathroom. Drum development tank helped a lot, the trays were a nightmare so I gave them up after first try.

Thanks for all the support, I'm liking this a lot, even with cheap paper!

20230425_030611.jpg 20230425_030709.jpg 20230425_030733.jpg
 

koraks

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Cool!
Drums vs trays is a matter of preference. Whichever works for you!

How did you end up cutting the paper? Here's how I've done it for a few years: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photograph...box-cutting-ra4-color-paper-sheets-from-roll/
Recently I was at a lab in an educational setting where they just had the roll in a box on a table, some pieces of string taped to the table to get the right length, and a roller cutter. Pull out paper through the roller cutter until the end of the string, cut off sheet, reclose bag & box. It was hilariously low-tech, but it worked! Students were making prints ca. 3ft wide and 5ft tall that way.
 

kfed1984

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For cutting the paper I had to fold 16x20 sheets in half two ways, making an ugly crease in the middle that acted as a guide for scissors. I will get one of those roller cutters.

Do you have any pics of how Type II compares to any of the other types? I actually kinda like the Type II, except it feels too flimsy and the blacks like you said appear blotchy if there's a large black area, and it's not too black. Wonder if rebleaching and redeveloping could increase the contrast/blackness, or maybe addition of peroxide to the developer as I've seen on some YouTube videos.

I'm still surprised how easy it all came out to print. The first image from the drum processor came out with a streak, which I figure came from a water droplet sliding down the paper. So I pre-wetted the whole sheet and the next few prints came out fine. I did the enlarger color adjustment as in your video, wasn't too complicated either, surprisingly.
 
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