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Separate Bleach and Fix for RA4?

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For the Kodak bleach fix replenisher I see ferric EDTA (bleach) in the SDS, which gets consumed:
1679699754813.png


But for the developer replenisher I don't see any CD3 color developer:
1679699870115.png

Doesn't the CD3 get consumed?

The whole RA kit consists of 4 parts: developer parts A+B, and Blix parts A+B.

We only need two replenishers, right? One for developer and one for Blix?
 
kfed1984 said:
But for the developer replenisher I don't see any CD3 color developer:
Click to expand...

You're only looking at part C. This particular replenisher is a 3-part replenisher. This is in the SDS for part A:
1679734005131.png


And here's the actual developer in part B:
1679734076219.png


kfed1984 said:
The whole RA kit consists of 4 parts: developer parts A+B, and Blix parts A+B.
Click to expand...

Depends on what kit you're referring to. perhaps there are kits out there with 2-part developers - I don't know. I only know the ones that are monopart, like Fuji Enviroprint MP90 etc. (which is what I use) and 3-part developers like the Ektacolor ones often posted about here. For blix, it's either a monopart again (the Fuji I use) or two-part (Kodak).

One of the challenges when you start out purchasing commercial RA4 chemistry, especially the types aimed at commercial (mini)lab usage, is to wade through the documentation and figure out what to get. Kodak used to be a little less tricky in this respect than Fuji. Not sure how that is currently. I only know that Fuji has for a long time (maybe still) offered a surprisingly wide range of chemistry and it was/is sometimes confusing to link the information from several datasheets to products listed on webshops etc.

PS: in case you're going through these SDS with the purpose of recreating your own chemistry, note that many substances are not included in it, even though they are critical. Substances can be omitted if they're (1) present in below reporting threshold concentrations, (2) not qualified as dangerous or (3) if the manufacturer has managed to waive reporting duties to protect intellectual property. Long story short: the SDS's are essentially incomplete much of the time, and this is very certainly the case for RA4 developers.
 
kfed1984 said:
Did you try making this already? Looks like EDTA is available at Alphachem near me, where I bought lots of other stuff.
Click to expand...

Yes, of course, that's what I use exclusively for my E-6 process.

Here is, what I use for making 1l of E-6 bleach:

Water: 600ml
NH4Br: 80g
EDTA free acid: 108g
FeCl3 40% w/w solution: 140g

This mixture will have a white powder, which will not dissolve as it is. Now slowly add Ammonia solution (house hold Ammonia), keep stirring, add more and more until all the white precipitate has gone into solution. Fine tune pH to 5.5 with Ammonia and Acetic Acid, and then add water to make 1000ml. This E-6 bleach works well, as long as you precede it with a prebleach bath.

If you want to make BLIX for RA-4, then do the following:
  1. Make 0.4 liter of the oxidizer part from 300ml water, 43g EDTA and 56g FeCl3 40% w/w solution and enough Ammonia solution to dissolve all the EDTA and enough water to make 400ml.
  2. Add 400ml water to make 800ml
  3. Add 100ml of some rapid fixer concentrate
  4. Fine tune pH to 6.5 with Ammonia and Acetic Acid, and then add water to make 1000ml.
This BLIX is too weak for C-41 or E-6, but will work with RA-4. You can try double strength version of this for

kfed1984 said:
Ammonia in what form? I think Ammonia is a gas, or gas in an aqueous solution, or compounds of ammonia.
Click to expand...

Ammonia solution is commonly sold as "household ammonia" as 20-28% solution in water. This is what you buy and use, you don't want to mess with a gas cylinder here.


In case this "EDTA" turns out to be EDTA Disodium or Tetrasodium Salt, you have to convert this product to EDTA free acid first. In order to do this, you do the following:

  1. Dissolve as much of this EDTA salt in a gallon or 5l canister with tap water as you can. Up to 100 g/l EDTA Disodium Salt will dissolve in water, the tetrasodium salt is even more soluble.
  2. Some small residue will remain, don't expect everything to dissolve
  3. Take a beaker, which can hold a liter of fluid, and fill it with this EDTA salt solution
  4. Slowly add battery acid (37% Sulfuric Acid), wait for white precipitate to form. If will form slowly and reluctantly at first, don't overshoot the Sulfuric Acid
  5. Slowly add more and more battery acid until you have the impression, that no more white precipitate will form.
  6. Take a separate 1l beaker with a funnel and a coffee filter, and filter out the EDTA + Sulfuric Acid mixture. The EDTA free acid you are after will be in the filter
  7. Wash the filter contents a few times with water. Don't wash too much, or you will lose precious EDTA.
  8. Put this filter in a clean dry place and wait for it to dry.
  9. Keep using more and more filters to create more and more EDTA until you have the amount you need.
 
halfaman said:
You can also turn the dark concentrate of a blix into a standalone bleach just adding ammonium bromide (NH4Br) to it. Minilab RA4 blix is very affordable, probably the cheapest photochemical in the market.
Click to expand...

Problem is they don't ship them and nothing is available near me.
 
koraks said:
You can work out how many 8x10's a kg of CD3 will develop based on the CD3 content of a typical RA4 developer and an estimate of how many prints a liter will develop.
Click to expand...
Speaking about paper, you mentioned in your video that Fuji Crystal Archive Type II is a bit dull. What do you think of Kodak papers? I think they are cheaper and can be bought in a smaller number of rolls:
www.bhphotovideo.com

Color Photo Enlarging Paper | Color Darkroom Paper | B&H

Buy Color Photographic Enlarging Paper from top brands like FUJIFILM and Kodak. Visit us for outstanding prices, selection, and fast shipping.
www.bhphotovideo.com www.bhphotovideo.com

Fuji Crystal Archive type PD
www.bhphotovideo.com

FUJIFILM Fujicolor Crystal Archive Super P Color Printing Paper - 10" x 575' Roll (Luster)

Buy FUJIFILM Fujicolor Crystal Archive Super P - 10" x 575' (Luster) Review FUJIFILM null
www.bhphotovideo.com www.bhphotovideo.com

Either I have to buy one giant giant roll or min 4 rolls from them. So I better get something good. The width of the paper is another matter, maybe it makes more sense to get a bigger roll and cut it up as needed.

Also, does the color paper expire over time if not exposed/developed, how long can you keep it at room temp?
 
Kodak Endura is/was great. I also tried Royal, which was a lot less interesting and more comparable to Crystal Archive. I never tried Edge. Nor have I tried Fuji Super P; I also don't have physical samples of this paper in my Fuji sampler pack.

kfed1984 said:
how long can you keep it at room temp?
Click to expand...

That varies wildly. At least a year, but generally maxed out at 2-3 years with some color shift in my experience. At some point the whites go yellow. Some older papers kept better, but not the ones currently made, I think.

Big rolls are difficult to handle.
 
so buying these huge rolls is gonna be a problem then, does freezing it help with preservation?

The Fuji Crystal Archive Type II is not worth it in your opinion because of poor blacks?

Another thought; do you feel the era of color/RA-4 paper is coming to an end soon or not for a while? Has there been a decline in the use of RA4 by the photo labs and the general market in the past several years?
 
Last edited:
somebody also mentioned that Fujiflex offers the most amazing colors of all Fuji papers

I think I will get Ektacolor Edge Lustre, the only one available in a single roll:
www.bhphotovideo.com

Kodak Ektacolor Edge Generations Paper (E Fine-Grained Luster, 8" x 305' Roll)

Buy Kodak Ektacolor Edge Generations Paper (E Fine-Grained Luster, 8" x 305' Roll) featuring For Color Prints from Color Negatives, Bold, Bright Colors, Long Lasting Prints, Distinctive Kodak Paper Backprint, Both Digital and Optical Exposure. Review Kodak null
www.bhphotovideo.com www.bhphotovideo.com
 
I could be wrong, but I think that listing might be for expired paper.
 
Another question,

I've seen some people on YouTube making paper negatives for B&W contact prints, could this work for color paper negatives/contacts?

I imagined a paper negative will make a blurry contact print, but from what the videos show they look quite good. Enlargements obviously will not work, but for contacts, this could be an alternative to spending $30 per 8x10 color negative sheet.

Any thoughts on this?
 
kfed1984 said:
I've seen some people on YouTube making paper negatives for B&W contact prints, could this work for color paper negatives/contacts?
Click to expand...
Since the back of the color paper has manufacturer watermarks, this is probably not feasible.
 
You'll have to scrounge the offering of your suppliers a bit. But:
* Endura in F and N surfaces comes with or without backing print, apparently depending on region.
* Crystal Archive DPII (and apparently also some others) come with or without backing print.

I have not tried the route of paper negatives for color RA4. In principle it can work of course, but how easy or difficult it is to get right, I don't know. I suspect it's tricky if accurate color reproduction is required.
 
halfaman said:
Tha couple of prints I have on Fuji CA Maxima does not have any backprint. Although it is not the everyday paper as minimum width starts in 16'' (40.6cm).
Click to expand...

how do the prints look in color/quality/blacks ? What kind of machines use this paper today and the larger rolls? Do they still make these printers or this paper is being consumed by printers that are slowly becoming extinct?
 
koraks said:
You'll have to scrounge the offering of your suppliers a bit. But:
* Endura in F and N surfaces comes with or without backing print, apparently depending on region.
Click to expand...
@koraks you mentioned in your video that RA4 development is essentially a development to completion process. That means if I hold the paper long enough in a weak/old developer it should come out correctly? In the video it looks like you're developing at room temperature while everybody else is doing it at about 100F while being crazy about temperature control within +/- 1F. Does it simply take longer to develop at room temperature or your special RA4 kit is meant for room temperature development specifically, or do you do something different like using higher concentration?

Also the Kodak literature mentions you can use no. 13 dark amber safelight with a 7W bulb if you hold the paper far enough from the light. Ever tried safelight for cutting/placing the paper?

Thanks.
 
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