the 1980's color photos were fading in the 2000's and 2010's, while the 90's are good as new. Maybe it's the paper, Fujifilm may have made some advancements since then.
Separate Bleach and Fix for RA4?
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the 1980's color photos were fading in the 2000's and 2010's, while the 90's are good as new. Maybe it's the paper, Fujifilm may have made some advancements since then.
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Sadly Photo Engineer passed away a couple of years ago.
Regarding print fading my guess is that it was due more to characteristics of the paper itself. In the 1980s some significant improvements were made in image stability.
If you have a lot a patience and perseverance you can read about it in Henry Wilhelm's encyclopedic book, available for free download on his website. He gives results of his own image stability testing on just about all the color papers of the 1980's and a bit beyond.
On this website a number of people use the term "regenerate" to mean that they have aerated their bleach to restore some bleaching power. In the lingo of Kodak, as well as most chemical suppliers, regeneration means to restore all of the chemical components to their spec values (this includes aeration). This is normally done by using replenishment in the processing machine; this creates excess bleach volume which overflows into a collection system. Then a chemical package called "bleach regenerator" is added to the collected overflow. This regenerated bleach then performs as a replenisher, and on and on. Note that the regeneration packages are designed for "proper" process layouts where film is squeegeed leaving the developer, and then plunges directly into the bleach.
The book you are referring to is: The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs ? Looks like a good book.
I am trying to find ways to prolong the RA-4 chemistry. Some people on YouTube use "replenishers" for both developers and blix.
Koraks, who is on this thread I think, used a developer solution for over a year in a plastic bottle full of air. He replenishes it and adds potassium hydroxide to maintain the pH.
I wonder if it's possible to buy a single RA-4 kit and keep replenishing it with own chemistry, or if you need to keep buying new kits. Seems like a waste.
I am trying to find ways to prolong the RA-4 chemistry. Some people on YouTube use "replenishers" for both developers and blix.
Koraks, who is on this thread I think, used a developer solution for over a year in a plastic bottle full of air. He replenishes it and adds potassium hydroxide to maintain the pH.
I wonder if it's possible to buy a single RA-4 kit and keep replenishing it with own chemistry, or if you need to keep buying new kits. Seems like a waste.
No, not full of air! Actually, very carefully devoid of any air - so entirely full PET bottles. But it is true I've been using the same batch of developer with adequate replenishment for a long time. I'm still using that same developer as shown in the video - it's just that it has been replaced gradually many times over since then. It's a bit like "grandfather's axe".
Well, you could, but it would require that your 'own chemistry' is essentially a fully functional RA4 developer. And if you make that, you wouldn't even have to buy the initial RA4 kit (or, at least, the developer part). A replenisher typically very closely resembles the working product, but with some relatively minor modifications.
Btw, it's also quite challenging to make (at home) an RA4 developer that has the same performance, stability and keeping properties as the commercially available products from e.g. Fuji. One issue is that it requires a number of compounds that are difficult to obtain for a private individual, and/or that are only cost effective if purchased in quantities far larger than you'd ever use in a lifetime. Another is that there are no officially published formulas around of contemporary RA4 developers. I've done some rooting around and collecting bits and pieces on my blog here: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photograph...lor-developer-formulas-including-c41-and-ra4/ However, this is all scraped from the web, and that in turn is often second-hand information, with the best qualification usually being "works quite well for me", or "is purported to be very close to the Kodak formula". Make of that what you will!
Whether purchasing a commercially made RA4 developer is a 'waste' - I wouldn't say that. In fact, it's very, very cost effective if used wisely. When all is said and done, I have spent a LOT less on printing color in terms of materials than on B&W, on a per-square-meter comparison. This is partly due to currently still low cost of paper, but also because the chemistry lasts a looooong time (and isn't too expensive to begin with).
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That is not my experience.
My parents 1980's prints (Agfa and Kodak paper mainly) are in great shape, even some of them are exhibited in their living room since more than 35 years. The first communion portraits of me and my brother (4 years older than me) are just perfect, they could be taken yesterday. Great color and contrast (and a bit cheesy also).
On the other hand, my collegue graduation print taken in year 2000 (Fuji paper) started fading after 5 years in the same room and lost 30% of the density in 12-15 years.
I think that it is not so much about better or worse processes but better or worse professionals....
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The big advantage of RA-4 vs. E-6/ECN-2/C-41 is, that like with B&W paper the final contrast is built into the emulsion. There is no push processing of RA-4 paper, it sort of "develops to completion". This makes the process a lot less prone to developer exhaustion. This "does not exhaust ever" thing will not hold for RA-4 BLIX: Ferric EDTA will attack thiosulfate, and excessive silver buildup will reduce thiosulfate power.
David Lyga mentioned potassium ferricyanide as a bleaching agent in C41. Could it also be used for RA4 instead of EDTA?
Just a pity that David left us some time ago( not a euphemism for being deceased) and I see little chance that he will return to furnish us with an answer
pentaxuser
For homebrew C41 and RA4, the most uncommon chemical seems to be EDTA, not the CD3 CD4 color developers, which you can source on alibaba, ebay, or artcraft chemicals
I've looked into SDS for the Arista RA4 kit, and it pretty much shows what the compositions are for different parts and the respective proportions. They all show EDTA, which I cannot find anywhere. The CD3 and CD4 (for C41) can be sourced more readily. So I was wondering if there's a substitute for EDTA and the differences it brings to the workflow. David Lyga mentioned something about potassium ferricyanide in C41 instead of EDTA as I understand.
Section 3 in the Aritsta RA4 SDS for each part shows the chemicals and proportions, but not sure how good/stable the Arista chemistry is in general:
Example, RA-4 BLIX PART B.
Still need to compare this to the homebrew recipe by William Laut. Maybe this is where Arista copied their RA-4, who knows:
Google patents may be another source for clues, Fuji and Kodak patents, if they patented some of this.
Also I noticed you have some recipes on your site, but haven't looked through it yet.
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Interesting for me to see this thread revive and see PE and David Lyga’s posts again.
kfed1984, there is no need to make up your own replenisher for your RA4 kits. Just use the commercially made replenisher (Kodak, . It makes the chemistry part of RA4 incredibly inexpensive. Back in the old days when I was using print drums the chemistry required per print was quite minimal, and I did it one shot. I do see that some people even reuse and replenish those small quantities. Using a larger volume as in open tray (which I can’t do due to sensitivity to RA4 developer) or roller transport machines the replenishment rate is really small (IIRC 10ml per 8x10).
kfed1984, there is no need to make up your own replenisher for your RA4 kits. Just use the commercially made replenisher (Kodak, . It makes the chemistry part of RA4 incredibly inexpensive. Back in the old days when I was using print drums the chemistry required per print was quite minimal, and I did it one shot. I do see that some people even reuse and replenish those small quantities. Using a larger volume as in open tray (which I can’t do due to sensitivity to RA4 developer) or roller transport machines the replenishment rate is really small (IIRC 10ml per 8x10).
The issue I have is sourcing the RA4 replenisher here in Toronto. B&H does not ship it, have to pick it up from NYC, long drive from me. I found a supplier of Tetenal RA4 kit in Toronto, but no replenisher. So maybe I can make up my own mix. Fujifilm does not reply obviously to my emails, but there's a Fuji office here that could also be a distributor for labs but not individuals.
Update on the previous email:
Fuji just sent me a credit application form for purchasing anything from them. Reached out to some random technical support extension and a random guy sent me the form. But it needs a registered business #, business account credit statement, lease information, etc. I had a business bank account, tax registration number, etc previously. So I know how it's done. I have an acquaintance who leases a fairly big commercial place, and I could fake a sub-lease with their help, etc, etc. Maybe then I can set up a business account again and turn it into an official business and become a distributor for Fuji products...... OMG It's getting too deep just to buy some replenisher.
Fuji just sent me a credit application form for purchasing anything from them. Reached out to some random technical support extension and a random guy sent me the form. But it needs a registered business #, business account credit statement, lease information, etc. I had a business bank account, tax registration number, etc previously. So I know how it's done. I have an acquaintance who leases a fairly big commercial place, and I could fake a sub-lease with their help, etc, etc. Maybe then I can set up a business account again and turn it into an official business and become a distributor for Fuji products...... OMG It's getting too deep just to buy some replenisher.
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It certainly works and has a super fast action in RA4 (10-15 seconds would be enough). I used it for double development technique years ago.
PE had some concerns about its use because the dyes were not developed with such a strong bleach in mind and it may affect their stability.
I'm thinking maybe the longevity/stability concerns of potassium ferricyanide could be verified with an accelerated sun exposure fading test, next to a conventionally-developed RA4 print for a comparative test.
Yeah, same here. Ferricyanide bleach works OK for RA4 paper. I don't know about long-term dye stability.
Yes, that might work. You'll need to do some decent densitometer of photospectrometer measurements though. Personally, for an amateur darkroom setup, I wouldn't bother with such. If this is for prints that somehow are intended for commercial purposes, I don't see why one would bother with DIY bleaches etc. if perfectly reliable products from major manufacturers are available. That you have not yet found an appropriate source is another matter; surely, it's possible to get good RA4 chemistry in Canada. There are major photo labs in Canada just as well, and they consume substantial amounts of chemistry. This means the stuff is around, and it's just a matter of locating a good source.
As to EDTA - I haven't looked for it lately, but last time I did, it wasn't particularly difficult to source from major chemical suppliers, and I ended up buying a small/home-user amount from a minor source (probably another hobbyist like myself) on my continent, at a competitive price. If I currently had to source a decent amount of let's say a couple of dozen kilos, I'd contact some people in China and see how far I'd get. It's a fairly common and not too risky chemical, so shouldn't be all too difficult to get hold of.
In fact, I just did a quick search on Google and it seems that several webshops in my area retail 'hobby' amounts of EDTA (packaging options up to a pound or so). Perhaps with a little more rooting around, something in Canada can also be found?
It has to be Ferric Ammonium EDTA and not any other EDTA, correct? I cannot find it, even Alibaba. Yes Toronto is a major photography center globally, but doing an online search does not yield anything. Lots of RA4 chemicals in UK, USA, Vancouver, just not Toronto for some reason. Will have to ask personally I think, in downtown photography stores.
Do you mostly print commercial work for others, or your own prints?
Yes, you're right; I'm sorry.
Not many suppliers, here's one that allegedly carries it: https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...upply-Ferric-ammonium-EDTA_1600628324810.html
I don't know this party, have not done business with them etc. Just a search result.
Be sure to search for CAS numbers; this tends to turn up more relevant matches in the industry.
That's a start. If you're serious about analog photography, you'll find it really helps to build a bit of a network. Talk to people, exchange information, maintain contacts. It's usually fun as well, but it takes some time. You generally end up with some more information also about viable sources than with just online sources. There's quite a bit of trade going on that people simply never get round to advertising online for whatever reasons.
I think unless you are prepared to mix it yourself I don't know of a supplier for seperate baths.
Did a search by CAS # and found something with a price for ferric EDTA, also asked for a quote on Alibaba
CD-3 for RA4 is about $150USD per kilo, Alibaba. Not sure how long this will last, in terms on # of 8x10 sheets.
For some reason I like to experiment with the chemicals myself, it gives me some kind of confidence in what I do. I don't like being dependent on other's trade secrets too much and rely on their technology, even if it's not practical. If something goes wrong in the processing, the knowledge of what goes inside of it gives me something to think about and troubleshoot.
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The risk with strong bleaches in processes, which are not rated for them, is dye stability. PE once explained, that there are stabilizers in photographic emulsions, which are reducers and prevent attacks by oxidizers. A strong bleach will do the oxidizing of these stabilizers, and aerial Oxygen will feast on dyes instead.
In order to test this, UV light won't do the trick. You might accelerate the stability test in an Oxygen rich environment, but really conclusive tests will likely involve a steep learning curve.
If you want to make Ammonium Ferric EDTA from scratch, you need EDTA free acid, Ferric Chloride and Ammonia. If you can't find EDTA free acid, you can make it from the more easily available Disodium EDTA or Tetrasodium EDTA.
In order to test this, UV light won't do the trick. You might accelerate the stability test in an Oxygen rich environment, but really conclusive tests will likely involve a steep learning curve.
If you want to make Ammonium Ferric EDTA from scratch, you need EDTA free acid, Ferric Chloride and Ammonia. If you can't find EDTA free acid, you can make it from the more easily available Disodium EDTA or Tetrasodium EDTA.
MattKing
Moderator
Try enquiring with the labs in Toronto whether they would share their sources with you.
Did you try making this already? Looks like EDTA is available at Alphachem near me, where I bought lots of other stuff.
Ammonia in what form? I think Ammonia is a gas, or gas in an aqueous solution, or compounds of ammonia.
Hopefully by the time we figure this out, they will not cancel RA-4 paper altogether.
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these guys in LA have tons of RA4 stuff, nothing like this in Toronto, and Greater Toronto Area is as big as LA.
www.freestylephoto.com
This Kodak replenisher makes it laughable, what I'm trying to do, but there's f'ng nothing in Toronto like this! WTF
www.freestylephoto.com
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This Kodak replenisher makes it laughable, what I'm trying to do, but there's f'ng nothing in Toronto like this! WTF
Kodak Ektacolor RA-4 Prime Stabilizer & Replenisher - Makes 10 Liters | Freestyle Photo & Imaging
Kodak Ektacolor RA-4 Prime Stabilizer & Replenisher for Color Negative Paper is used in place of a final wash in washless minilabs.Key FeaturesFor use in Machine ProcessorsLow Replenishment Rate - LORR
www.freestylephoto.com
I know what you mean. That's part of what hot me down the DIY path at some point, together with keeping properties.
You can work out how many 8x10's a kg of CD3 will develop based on the CD3 content of a typical RA4 developer and an estimate of how many prints a liter will develop. Off the top of my head CD3 is roughly 0.5% or so and effectively you should be able to get 20 to 50 8x10's through a liter of developer. These are just ballpark figures, but can give you a feeling of the order of magnitude.
Don't give up the search for factory made chemistry yet. It saves you a lot of trouble one way or another.
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