Selenium Toners - Brand Differences?

[wiggywag]

Hi!

I can see that both Kodak, Ilford and Adox have Selenium Toners.

I wondered if there is any big differences or if the same results can be achieved anyway.

Any opinions of what to choose and why?

Thanks

 

[brian steinberger]

I've always used Kodak's Rapid Selenium Toner. It's a great toner. I use it diluted 1:9 from anywhere from 3 to 20 minutes on different papers depending upon the affect I want.

I recently added Ilford's Selenium toner to my darkroom. I dulite it 1:3 as recommended but only use this for when I want to fully selenium tone a print, which takes usually only 10 minutes or less. This works beautifully on Ilford MGWT. This dilution is very strong and adequate ventilation is a must.

Both are great toners. If you don't intend to print for strong color shifts you could get away with either toner diluted 1:19 or more. If you tone for color I find the Ilford selenium toner to be more reddish brown and just a bit stronger color than the Kodak. Hope this helps.

 

[Guillaume Zuili]

They are all great and do the same job. But each of them give a different color in the end. So if you do a series stick to one.
Whatever the one...

 

[Colin Corneau]

Don't forget the choice of paper will make a big difference in the final 'look', as will the dilution and time toned. So if you compare, keep everything consistent to truly know the differences.

 

[Toffle]

Don't forget the choice of paper will make a big difference in the final 'look', as will the dilution and time toned. So if you compare, keep everything consistent to truly know the differences.

I still have a bottle of Berg Selenium that I use as an alternative to Kodak. All things being equal, I find the Berg gives more of a red colour shift at similar dilutions. I find that it turns my coffee prints to a rich chocolate tone. (looks quite appetizing... )

Cheers,

 

[wiggywag]

Is there big differences in speed? Kodak calls the product "Rapid" Selenium Toner. Are the others slower?

 

[bill spears]

I think speed of toning is more due to the strength/dilution of the toner rather than the brand name and also the emulsion type. Some warmtone emulsions react a lot quicker than others

 

[Andrew Moxom]

I've only tried Kodak Rapid Selenium toner and Kentmere's equivalent (last year in a moment of weakness!) I found the Kentmere to be a poor copy of the kodak toner. It smells more of ammonia than the kodak does, and the Kentmere did not seem as active as the kodak toner is. I mix mine so I can just get a good smell of ammonia. Not the most scientific, or safe procedure, but it works for me. I also only tone for color, not just for archival permanance as that will happen as part of my usual bleaching/sepia toning anyway. I would not recommend the Kentmere as Kodak's KRST has done me right for the 20 years since I've been playing with it.

 

[eclarke]

I use both KRST and the Harman for the same papers and find the Harman to be much warmer...Evan Clarke

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Evan, what do you mean by warmer?

Can you explain more specifically with a common paper that you've tried? I'd be interested to know.

Thanks,

- Thomas

 

[Tom Stanworth]

I have used KRST (regular) and Maco. I only partially tone and would not say there was much to comment on between them.

 

[eclarke]

Evan, what do you mean by warmer?

Can you explain more specifically with a common paper that you've tried? I'd be interested to know.

Thanks,

- Thomas

Especially on the Ilford WT FB. I use Ansco 130 with Benzotriazole instead of bromide which cools the paper to neutral and the KRST warms it up an extremely tiny amount. The Harman kicks this over to sort of an ugly brown regardless of how much time or dilution I give it. I am using the Harman for Oriental neutral paper and for MGIV but I am really printing 99% on the WT..TTYL..Evan

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thanks Evan.

Ilford MGIV is pretty much the only paper I envision using in the future, so it's good to know that the Harman selenium toner works OK with it.

Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner works really well with this paper if bleached and sepia toned first. It really takes the selenium toner well after that treatment. The sepia gives the highs a golden hue and the midtones go warm, a bit brown. Then the selenium fills in from the bottom, and you can go from really subtle, depending on bleach dilution and time, to really intense coloration.

 

[brian steinberger]

Thanks Evan.

Ilford MGIV is pretty much the only paper I envision using in the future, so it's good to know that the Harman selenium toner works OK with it.

Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner works really well with this paper if bleached and sepia toned first. It really takes the selenium toner well after that treatment. The sepia gives the highs a golden hue and the midtones go warm, a bit brown. Then the selenium fills in from the bottom, and you can go from really subtle, depending on bleach dilution and time, to really intense coloration.

Thomas, are you referring to MGIV? Your description sounds a bit like MGWT. Just checking. Thanks!

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Brian, indeed MGIV, not warmtone.

- Thomas

 

[clayne]

You guys might laugh, but I've never really done anything with Se before (beginning printer here, although experienced in film). However, just tonight I did just a few RC prints in KRST (1+10) and loved it. Selenium is like liquid crack for prints. Inside my head I was thinking... "You mean I can just throw my prints in this and agitate for 5 minutes and they're just plain better all around with minimal downsides?"

I was using Agfa MCP and it took on a very faint red/copperish tone. Not totally subtle, but nothing over the top. The blacks settled in very nicely and overall the print just looked more detailed and had more depth. Completely my kind of toned feel - it looks great. Afterward I tried some Ilford MGIV RC and the results were similar, but noticeably more subdued compared to the Agfa.

Of course hearing all of the toxic horror stories of the stuff I took precautions but I never really found it that dangerous to deal with, considering you don't need much in a tray and my agitation was a fairly simple rock back and forth in a controlled manner. It took atleast 5 minutes before I saw effects set in but A+Bing against the same prints I could tell they were different.

If I want to increase intensity of toning, it's just a matter of dilution, correct? It seemed like increased time made almost no difference past a certain point.

 

[Colin Corneau]

Keep the precautions -- lots of good ventilation and never, EVER let it touch your skin. One small cut, that stuff gets inside and you have some serious problems.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Past a certain point there is not going to be a change.

If you try some warmtone papers, like Ilford MGWT or Fomatone, you will see a much more pronounced effect.

Yes, please be careful not to breathe the fumes.

- Thomas

You guys might laugh, but I've never really done anything with Se before (beginning printer here, although experienced in film). However, just tonight I did just a few RC prints in KRST (1+10) and loved it. Selenium is like liquid crack for prints. Inside my head I was thinking... "You mean I can just throw my prints in this and agitate for 5 minutes and they're just plain better all around with minimal downsides?"

I was using Agfa MCP and it took on a very faint red/copperish tone. Not totally subtle, but nothing over the top. The blacks settled in very nicely and overall the print just looked more detailed and had more depth. Completely my kind of toned feel - it looks great. Afterward I tried some Ilford MGIV RC and the results were similar, but noticeably more subdued compared to the Agfa.

Of course hearing all of the toxic horror stories of the stuff I took precautions but I never really found it that dangerous to deal with, considering you don't need much in a tray and my agitation was a fairly simple rock back and forth in a controlled manner. It took atleast 5 minutes before I saw effects set in but A+Bing against the same prints I could tell they were different.

If I want to increase intensity of toning, it's just a matter of dilution, correct? It seemed like increased time made almost no difference past a certain point.

 

[clayne]

Past a certain point there is not going to be a change.

If you try some warmtone papers, like Ilford MGWT or Fomatone, you will see a much more pronounced effect.

Yes, please be careful not to breathe the fumes.

- Thomas

When people mention fumes, are they talking diluted working solution or the raw concentrate? The concentrate had a noticeable smell - but the diluted WS (1+10) barely smelled at all.

 

[Gennari]

Keep the precautions -- lots of good ventilation and never, EVER let it touch your skin. One small cut, that stuff gets inside and you have some serious problems.

From a medical point of view this seems way exaggerated.

 

[clayne]

BTW: Seeing as how great selenium toning seems to be - is there any downside to it other than potential color shifts when they aren't desired?

 

[brian steinberger]

BTW: Seeing as how great selenium toning seems to be - is there any downside to it other than potential color shifts when they aren't desired?

Only other downside I can think of is slight increase in Dmax can sometimes turn detailed shadows into a black mass, though this is usually easily avoidable by decreasing contrast. Most often the increase in Dmax is welcome.

 

[clayne]

Only other downside I can think of is slight increase in Dmax can sometimes turn detailed shadows into a black mass, though this is usually easily avoidable by decreasing contrast. Most often the increase in Dmax is welcome.

Yes, definitely. I'm finding it also quite useful as it doesn't seem to affect the highlights - allowing me to print lighter and bring the blacks down in the toner. It seems if I increase contrast to approach something similar the highlights blow out while the blacks go down (the latter I want).

 

[Photo Engineer]

BTW: Seeing as how great selenium toning seems to be - is there any downside to it other than potential color shifts when they aren't desired?

The downside is that Selenium is very very toxic. Handle it with care and at the normal dilutions it is quite safe. However, observe good handling and disposal procedures and wash up well after use. If you spill any on the floor or your clothes, handle the cleanup with great care.

Dead Link Removed

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium

PE

 

[brian steinberger]

Yes, definitely. I'm finding it also quite useful as it doesn't seem to affect the highlights - allowing me to print lighter and bring the blacks down in the toner. It seems if I increase contrast to approach something similar the highlights blow out while the blacks go down (the latter I want).

Remember that print exposure controls highlights and contrast controls your shadows. You shouldn't need to rely on selenium to increase contrast, it should just add that little "kick" to the print that makes it sparkle. Selenium is an amazing toner. Regardless of if I'm also toning in sepia or Viradon, all my fine prints get a bath in selenium toner at some point.