Selenium Toners - Brand Differences?

[clayne]

Remember that print exposure controls highlights and contrast controls your shadows. You shouldn't need to rely on selenium to increase contrast, it should just add that little "kick" to the print that makes it sparkle. Selenium is an amazing toner. Regardless of if I'm also toning in sepia or Viradon, all my fine prints get a bath in selenium toner at some point.

True, but I guess what I was referring to was a benefit of selenium giving the ability to "clip blacks" if you know what I mean. There are times when bumping the contrast doesn't work for me whereas if I could just drop out the blacks selectively and leave the mids and highs where they were, I would have ample "max" black but exposure where I want it.

 

[Photo Engineer]

All reflective print materials (FB prints or RC prints) are limited in dmax from about 1.8 to 2.2 or thereabouts. This is due to physical laws that create multiple internal reflections. Matte papers are in the low range of 1.8 - 2.0 and glossy are in the range of 2.0 - 2.2 as approximations.

These translate over into what happens when you tone. You are limited.

The lower the dmax and the softer the shoulder, the greater the latitude and detail in shadow areas. If you force it too far, you just get black on black and lose detail.

PE

 

[clayne]

One of the prints I toned last night on Agfa MCP RC 5x7 in KRST 1+10 for about 8 minutes, taken with a Nikon F3+20/2.8 on Pan F+ 50 in Rodinal 1+50:

 

[Jarvman]

Nice Clayne! I got a nasty selenium stain on the white border of the print. Is there any way of blasting that out? My judgment guesses probably not. Why can't I find a copy of Mr Rudmans f@#?#£% toning book!

 

[Don Wallace]

Thanks Evan.

Ilford MGIV is pretty much the only paper I envision using in the future, so it's good to know that the Harman selenium toner works OK with it.

Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner works really well with this paper if bleached and sepia toned first. It really takes the selenium toner well after that treatment. The sepia gives the highs a golden hue and the midtones go warm, a bit brown. Then the selenium fills in from the bottom, and you can go from really subtle, depending on bleach dilution and time, to really intense coloration.

I have never had any luck with MGIV and Selenium. The results were barely noticeable. MGWT reacts quite well, as others have noted. I am definitely going to try your procedure. It sounds fabulous. Would you mind outlining it in a just a little more detail (e.g., time and dilutiion)? How about a few examples?

 

[Mike1234]

Remember that print exposure controls highlights and contrast controls your shadows. You shouldn't need to rely on selenium to increase contrast, it should just add that little "kick" to the print that makes it sparkle. Selenium is an amazing toner. Regardless of if I'm also toning in sepia or Viradon, all my fine prints get a bath in selenium toner at some point.

Selenium toning extends the gamma curve's straight line a bit further and more linearly than exposure/development alone. Along with high acutance developers it works with film and with prints to provide more open shadows and unblocked highlights. It works very, very well.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Nice Clayne! I got a nasty selenium stain on the white border of the print. Is there any way of blasting that out? My judgment guesses probably not. Why can't I find a copy of Mr Rudmans f@#?#£% toning book!

That means that your prints are not properly fixed. Your fixer might be exhausted and/or you fix for a short time. Make some fresh working solution and check again.

 

[Mike1234]

^^^ Yes... fresh fixer, rinse, hypo clear, thorough wash (your tools and hands too), then toner.

 

[Jarvman]

That means that your prints are not properly fixed. Your fixer might be exhausted and/or you fix for a short time. Make some fresh working solution and check again.

Hmm ok, fair enough. The fix had been used before but it still smelled pretty potent. I supposed it wouldn't need as much fixing because selenium toner has a high percentage of fix right? Nevermind.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Try washing the paper and / or a clearing bath between the fixer and selenium toner.

Tom

 

[Anon Ymous]

Hmm ok, fair enough. The fix had been used before but it still smelled pretty potent. I supposed it wouldn't need as much fixing because selenium toner has a high percentage of fix right? Nevermind.

That would be convenient, but it's not true. If you still have silver halides left, some of them will be fixed, but some of them will react and form silver selenide, hence the tone at the border.

 

[Don Wallace]

I had the same problem when I first started toning with selenium. The procedure Mike1234 outlines is bulletproof but lengthy. At the very least, you have to wash the print thoroughly before toning.

 

[clayne]

I had the same problem when I first started toning with selenium. The procedure Mike1234 outlines is bulletproof but lengthy. At the very least, you have to wash the print thoroughly before toning.

I've only heard this is necessary if it's not coming right out of the fix bath.

 

[Mike1234]

You can do a quick rinse after fixing (fresh fixer) and use a combination hypo clear with selenium toner followed by normal wash but I don't like to do that. IMHO, if an image is important enough to print and tone it's important enough to go the full course.

 

[clayne]

Yes, but doesn't Se toner contain fixer anyways? Washing fixer out when we're putting it back into a substance containing fixer isn't going to buy us anything, right?

 

[Mike1234]

Selenium toner contains no hypo.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Selenium toner contains no hypo.

Copied from the label of my KRST bottle:

Additional components include: Water (7732-18-5), Ammonium Thiosulfate (7783-18-8)

So, it certainly does.

 

[Mike1234]

Woops... you're right.

 

[Mike1234]

This might help: http://teachingphoto.com/downloads/Selenium.pdf

 

[tim rudman]

Nice Clayne! I got a nasty selenium stain on the white border of the print. Is there any way of blasting that out? My judgment guesses probably not. Why can't I find a copy of Mr Rudmans f@#?#£% toning book!

Hi Jarvman
Just check out your notes from the workshop
They will show you how to avoid Se stains
Tim

 

[clayne]

BTW, I recently did the straight jump from fixer to Selenium (1+4) and I will say that experience shows me that while Se toner may contain the same elements of fixer - it sure as heck doesn't include acetic acid (which is undoubtedly hanging around in your fixer bath after a few prints). The result: stained trays, stained toner, and ineffectual toning. I don't recommend it and am now back to washing before and after toner.

A couple more recent examples with higher dilutions of KRST (1+20) on MCP RC (Glossy) and MGIV Warmtone RC (Pearl), both 5x7 prints, originally shot on APX400@1600:



The MCP reliably tones as a light purplish tan, whereas the MGIV WT definitely takes on a more chocolate brown feel. I like them both, and I like the variety of not only different papers but the way Se toner feels/appears different even on the same paper but different print. I've only been printing for a couple of months now and am still picking up the nuances of things.

 

[Jim Chinn]

The most important thing to remeber when working with selenium toner is to clean up spills. What you smell is the hypo in the toner, the hypo is not toxic. The selenium stays in solution. Wear rubber gloves or use tongs so as to not to get it on the skin, but if you do spill some on yourself rinse it off well. The real danger is from inhalation of dust left over from dried spills. Selenium dust is carcinogenic if inhaled. There are formulas for mixing your own toner from raw selenium. This is were you could run into some serious problems with out using the proper dust mask and mixing it indoors where selenium dust could go into the ventilation system.

 

[bill spears]

BTW, I recently did the straight jump from fixer to Selenium (1+4)

I always give a brief wash straight after coming out of the fix, then hypo clear, then another another wash, then selenium toner, then another hypo clear (to neutralize the thiosulphate in selenium) then another final wash !!
I don't like the practice of mixing hypo clear in with the selenium as I like to keep all the solutions fresh and strong and not contaminated etc.

Probably sounds over fussy but I never get stains. Like somebody said earlier - if a prints worth toning ....

RC paper though doesn't get anything like this amount of attention

 

[Mike1234]

Bill has a very good procedure. With careful utensil and hand washing he "should" never experience staining.

 

[brian steinberger]

clayne, the simple procedure to remember is; after fix wash for 5 min, hypo clear for 5 minutes, wash for 5 minutes, tone, then quick rinse, hypo clear for 5 min, then final wash (time depends, use the residual fixer test). This is the archival procedure for FB papers.