Seeking Counsel--Nikon FE vs F with Photomic Finder

[flavio81]

Thank you for your well written and useful post, it's very much appreciated and I think you understand what I look for in a camera.

Hi Camera-Enthusiast,

The posts above suggest a Nikkormat FT2. I had one, in black, but at the end I kept the Nikon FE and the Nikon F (and later sold the FE.) The FT2 is beautiful (in black) and really sturdy, but these were my problems with it:

- Lens changing is slow, because you MUST set the lens to f5.6 to fit it in or to take it out. This because of the rabbit-ear system in the FT/FT2. Moreover, to mount a lens you must make sure the aperture coupling pin is set fully to the right. So to mount a lens, those are usual the steps:

a) verify that the aperture coupling pin far to the right
b) set your lens to f5.6 (and this, sometimes, while you have the lens and camera in your hands -- be careful not to drop the lens!)
c) mount the lens by aligning correctly with the aperture coupling pin and turning the lens left
d) twist it to minimum aperture
e) twist it to maximum aperture
f) Now you can enjoy. But set your lens to the desired aperture, because the previous aperture was disturbed.

As you see, there are five (5) steps. The competing Canon cameras (from 1971 on) had the following procedure:

a) couple the lens to the camera, by pressing the lens against the mount
b) twist the breech-lock ring {in fact step (a) automatically twists it a little bit}
c) Enjoy. The lens aperture setting was never disturbed.

Two steps.

Anyways, the Nikon AI cameras have no such problem. The plain Nikon F has no such problem either, because of no meter coupling.

The Photomic T and Photomic TN (for the Nikon F) use these "rabbit ears" as well, but they don't require you to set the lens to f5.6 to move it in and out of the camera.

- The shutter speed lever is not so easy to grab; sometimes it could end in an angle where it is ackward to grab and move. In this respect i find the conventionally-located shutter speed dial (of the other Nikons) much more ergonomic.

- The shutter, a vertical Copal, is noticeably more rough (more vibrations) than the horizontal shutter of the Nikon F. In other words, vibrations are noticeably stronger than in the Nikon F. The Nikon F's shutter curtain is remarkably smooth, in fact I think it was Celestron (telescope manufacturers) who did some vibration tests in the 70s and chose the Nikon F as the ideal camera to mate with their longest telescopes. Now, having said that, I certainly got sharp pictures from my Nikkormat in most (or all) occasions, in fact one of my best picture was taken with a Nikkormat, so it's more of a "feel" problem than an actual, practical problem.

- Photometer. The Nikkormat photometer uses a ring resistor (around the lens mount) that is doomed to failure just as in the Photomic finders. The first sign of aging is a jumpy meter needle. This can be sometimes cured by a technician, which will clean the contacts, but eventually the thing wears since the brushes move against the resistor surface:

a) whenever you mount a lens and do the "Nikon Twist" (i.e. moving from f5.6 to f22 and then to f1.4 and then to the chosen aperture), which is mandatory
b) whenever you adjust aperture
c) whenever you adjust shutter speed

So, you see, this resistor is always doing a heavy duty job. TEST THE CAMERA before buying, for example only in certain speeds you will find the "jumpy meter needle" syndrome while other speeds may be fine. So try the meter at all speed/aperture ranges.

- Lens compatibility (sort of): For AI lenses without the "rabbit ears". You can mount them in the FT2, of course, but for correct metering you need to move the FT2's meter coupling pin totally to the left (or right? can't remember). Then you meter using stop-down metering. So far, so good.

The problem is that very often, in my experience, your fingers will unintentionally move the meter coupling pin, thus, messing down the meter reading without you noticing it.

If all your lenses have the "rabbit ears" then there's no problem, of course.

- Photometer. The CdS meter in the Nikkormat is slow to stabilize in indoors/low light (most CdS meters are.) If you really care for in-camera metering, the meter on the FE is vastly quicker and better.

- Noise. The Nikon F is quieter. The Nikkormat gives a satisfying (but loud) "Ka-chunk!" sound.

All in all I liked my FT2, but I did had problems with the above issues. Mostly, time lost due to the awkwardness of having to switch hand positions to grab the shutter speed dial. And the slowness of lens-changing. I sold the FT2 and got the FE, and I liked the FE way more.

 

[flavio81]

Truth is that the wide-open metering methods are probably inferior to the stop-down cameras in terms of meter accuracy. A resistor is substituted for the actual reading of the photocell. In simpler terms, you have a second tier of inferior linearity substitution in addition to the first inaccuracy. The prong can be removed from the lens and the lens used in the darkening mode. Only 1 failure in linearity is to be dealt with then, instead of one innacuracy on top of another. Then the camera would be named the "Nikon Spotmatic".

I disagree.

On most TTL-metering cameras, that is, in all TTL-metering cameras that don't meter off the film plane (i.e. Olympus OM-2), or using a sub-mirror (i.e. Nikon F3), or diverting light from the focusing screen lens (i.e. Canon F-1), the light has to pass through the following:

a. Mirror
b. Focusing screen lens
c. Focusing screen fresnel lens
d. Focusing screen frosted glass
e. Aspherical metering cell lens OR similar lens for metering
f. Metering cells.

The end result is that, for example, if one fits a f1.4 lens and then stops down to f2.0, using stopped-down metering in such cameras, the meter will probably NOT sense a full-stop light diminishing, but a lesser change in light. This as a side effect of the optical path travelled by the light (a to f).

While the full-aperture system will immediately indicate a "full stop less light" condition. Which is more true to reality.

You can attempt this test on many cameras that offer you full-aperture metering and stopped-down metering, to confirm i'm not lying. The difference will be more evident with f1.2 or f1.4 lenses.

Stopped-down metering becomes more precise only with smaller apertures, for example f4.0 and lower.

 

[Nodda Duma]

flavio8, that likely has more to do with reduced transmission of steeper ray angles through coatings in fast lenses running wide open than with the optical path. I've seen this issue before on objectives with steep ray angles (non-commercial projects).

 

[blockend]

Ft3: takes modern battery, svelt without an external pre-Ai lever/arm, stop down metering with pre-Ai lenses

all gorgeous in black paint!

Never owned an FT3 and nice examples are increasingly hard to come by, not least because they were made for a very short time as a stop gap because the FM was late coming on line. They're a great bridge between 60s-70s heavy metal, and the later Nikon compact world. If I found a good one I'd jump at it.

 

[flavio81]

flavio8, that likely has more to do with reduced transmission of steeper ray angles through coatings in fast lenses running wide open than with the optical path. I've seen this issue before on objectives with steep ray angles (non-commercial projects).

You mean lens "telecentricity"? Interesting!

 

[Nodda Duma]

Not exactly. Coatings (especially simpler ones) are typically optimized for 0-degree ray angle of incidence, so the transmission efficiency falls off at higher ray angles. Higher ray angles often occur towards the edge of the lens...so the coating on a wide open lens may see less efficiency due to the outer surface "ring" seeing higher ray angles. As you stop it down the typical angle of incidence decreases. Voila. Not quite a 2x reduction in light. I would expect the effect would decrease the more you stop the lens down (I've never had to quantify it).

Multi-layer coatings can be specified for a range of angles...of course the wider the range means a more complex coating. So for example I'll include a note on the drawing which reads something like "Coating shall provide avg 98% transmission within the spectral band of interest for 0-15 degree AOI". AOI = ray angle of incidence. This can get tricky for steep surfaces. The worst was probably 97% over a 0-40 degree AOI on an IR material. The optical shop required a few weeks and several iterations to get a coating that wouldn't delaminate under environmental testing.

 

[Camera-Enthusiast]

I purchased the F and the 50mm 1.4, the lens has a small dent on the inside of the filter thread which I'm hoping to correct.
The F however is in pristine condition and looks as if it's never been used. The photomic is still responding to light, I've yet to put a roll of film through it and find out if it's actually accurate. I'm still considering selling it and was wondering how much a working photomic and an E condition F would go for on Ebay? Also, would the year it was made alter the price?

 

[fotch]

............ I'm still considering selling it and was wondering how much a working photomic and an E condition F would go for on Ebay? Also, would the year it was made alter the price?

Selling? :eek:

 

[frank]

selling the metering head?

 

[Camera-Enthusiast]

I'm possibly looking to sell the entire body (The F with the Photomic)

 

[leicarfcam]

I purchased the F and the 50mm 1.4, the lens has a small dent on the inside of the filter thread which I'm hoping to correct.
The F however is in pristine condition and looks as if it's never been used. The photomic is still responding to light, I've yet to put a roll of film through it and find out if it's actually accurate. I'm still considering selling it and was wondering how much a working photomic and an E condition F would go for on Ebay? Also, would the year it was made alter the price?

If you want to know what a like condition model is truly selling for click the advanced link next to search in any eBay search. Enter the keyword and pick cameras and photo then check completed listings. Look for any sold item indicated by the green amount. That is the actual selling price.

If you do a normal search and go by what the seller wants which is usually way too high, you'll get a false selling price..

 

[blockend]

A couple of years ago I saw a plain prism F with a very low number in mint condition sell for £800+, which was much more than I sold an identical camera for some years ago (think x10). I would imagine a fully boxed example with all the trimmings in as new condition might go for quite a bit more. On the other hand a normal condition F + Photomic head sells for £150 upwards and beaters go for less.

 

[Steve Smith]

My bad, English is not my first language.

A bit more advice. Please don't use the term 'my bad'. That's not proper English either. Don't let an American tell you otherwise!!

I have Nikon Fs and an FE2. I like them both but they are quite different. One of my F meters does work but I wouldn't trust it. I will use an F if I don't mind carrying a separate meter or relying on sunny 16. If I want to keep equipment to a minimum, I will use the FE2 and one lens and rely on its internal meter.


Steve.

 

[ColColt]

I have two FTN Photomics and have taken some of the best pictures I've ever taken with them. I had trouble with the carbon ring in the first one but took it apart, cleaned it and was back in business. Unfortunately, that was back when PX-625 batteries were plentiful and big brother hadn't put the hammer down on mercury batteries at that point.

No fear, I still used them from time to time along with my trusty Gossen Luna Pro SBC if I was doubtful about the exposure. They were and to me, still are some fine cameras "built like tanks". The Nikkormat FT3 is another good one I've owned and like the FTN is not reliant on battery power like the super duper models of today. Lose your battery power all shutter speeds are still available. My pick of the litter is still the F2A/F2AS. The best Nikon ever brought out.

My old FTN



And better looking brother...

 

[Theo Sulphate]

I have two FTN Photomics and have taken some of the best pictures I've ever taken with them. I had trouble with the carbon ring in the first one but took it apart, cleaned it and was back in business.
...

Lovely cameras.

That FTN head opened up reveals itself as an impressive device. I wish a third party would make replacement ring resistors for the Nikon metering heads; there's got to be a market for that.

 

[ColColt]

I don't know if Sover Wong works with the FTN's or not. He's primarily an F2 man but definitely the best there is.

I bought that F2A from a collector and it looks just like the photo. There was never a roll of film through it until I got it.

 

[blockend]

The whole point of photomic head Nikons was you could remove them, and make your camera part of a system. For those who didn't need to - and I'm guessing in the digital age that's about 99% of users - you're walking round with a camera with a badly placed, antiquely designed metering system inside a head that gathers dust and can attract moisture and throws the body weight in all the wrong places. By the last iteration of the film F even Nikon twigged that nobody took the head off and dropped the feature.

What they should have done is produce an integrated meter pro Nikon for the 99% all along. Actually they did, it's called the Nikkormat, but the meter is still an antique. If I were mixing practicality and cool in 2015 I'd go for a mint plain prism F2 in black. Probably as rare as hen's teeth but a nice dream all the same. Much cheaper is a 'Mat.

 

[Lamar]

I just had Sover CLA the FTN finder below and calibrate for 1.5v so I can use PX625A / LR44 / SR44 / 357 batteries (with holders). Works great. I don't think he has replacements parts for the FTN's like he does for F2 finders so repairs maybe limited. E-mail him to find out what he can do.

I don't know if Sover Wong works with the FTN's or not. He's primarily an F2 man but definitely the best there is.

I bought that F2A from a collector and it looks just like the photo. There was never a roll of film through it until I got it.

 

[Xmas]

The whole point of photomic head Nikons was you could remove them, and make your camera part of a system. For those who didn't need to - and I'm guessing in the digital age that's about 99% of users - you're walking round with a camera with a badly placed, antiquely designed metering system inside a head that gathers dust and can attract moisture and throws the body weight in all the wrong places. By the last iteration of the film F even Nikon twigged that nobody took the head off and dropped the feature.

What they should have done is produce an integrated meter pro Nikon for the 99% all along. Actually they did, it's called the Nikkormat, but the meter is still an antique. If I were mixing practicality and cool in 2015 I'd go for a mint plain prism F2 in black. Probably as rare as hen's teeth but a nice dream all the same. Much cheaper is a 'Mat.

While they were in production you could have a meter, plain, long eye relief,... Etc.
Motor, etc.

Why do you need a mint one my prism has glass damage, but it does not show on photos.

 

[blockend]

While they were in production you could have a meter, plain, long eye relief,... Etc.
Motor, etc.

Why do you need a mint one my prism has glass damage, but it does not show on photos.

My chrome F was mint and I wouldn't like to trade down to a bent one. Users had access to all that stuff, but how many did change heads except for medical or astronomical use? A 35mm screen is tiny, even viewed through a hood, and a right angle finder serves the same job. Changing screens can be useful, but there were a number of cameras that permitted that without removing the head.

For the majority who never needed to remove the head, the metering system was in the wrong place and it makes the camera unbalanced in my experience.

 

[ColColt]

I just had Sover CLA the FTN finder below and calibrate for 1.5v so I can use PX625A / LR44 / SR44 / 357 batteries (with holders). Works great. I don't think he has replacements parts for the FTN's like he does for F2 finders so repairs maybe limited. E-mail him to find out what he can do.

I'd love for him to go over my finder and do that. It would be great to put it back to work again. Are you talking about the MR-9 holder?

 

[Xmas]

A bit more advice. Please don't use the term 'my bad'. That's not proper English either. Don't let an American tell you otherwise!!

I have Nikon Fs and an FE2. I like them both but they are quite different. One of my F meters does work but I wouldn't trust it. I will use an F if I don't mind carrying a separate meter or relying on sunny 16. If I want to keep equipment to a minimum, I will use the FE2 and one lens and rely on its internal meter.


Steve.

It is good American.
There are more Americans on this forum, than UK, Australian or NZ...

 

[Steve Smith]

It is good American.

No. You can't own an adjective!

I have two Nikon Fs. One black and one chrome. I don't know why but I prefer the look of the chrome one with the Photomic head and the black one with the plain prism.


Steve.

 

[ColColt]

Sure you can. I ain't got no problem with that expression.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Some of us speak gooder English, by cracky!