Sad Fuji News/Happy Voigtländer News -GF670 in Japan only -Bessa III elsewhere!

[abeku]

...it looks remarkably like the GS645.

I agree, I had the GS645 and it was a great companion. I've always been pleasantly surprised how good the Fuji optics are and I assume this new folder won't be an exception. As a matter of fact, I've already signed up on the waiting list at Cameraquest.com...

 

[pellicle]

David

It's an electronically controlled leaf shutter, so the shutter speed dial and PC sync are on the body.

Now what I wonder about is how the focus and rangefinder coupling all work. There is a focus lever on the lens, if I'm not mistaken. The Bessa II has a knob on the body to move the front standard back and forth, and this is mechanically coupled to the rangefinder. This camera seems to have a very different arrangement.

that's exactly right. This is a section of my RF Bessa.

for more detail click here.

I noticed also that the Bessa III camera seems to have an entirely different mechanism. As pure speculation, I have a suspicion that it uses an electronic stepper system to couple focus and rangefinder. This would require less precision in the mechanical design and perhaps be easily sourced form existing components. A vernier arrangement printed on the lens and an optical system such as the old mouse mechanism (see here) to measure both could provide very high accuracy.

It would of course mean that the system would use power on focusing, but may mean that you could still focus without battery (based on scale) and not have coupled rangefinder. I wonder it if takes an AAA? I don't see any sign of a battery compartment.

Compared with a mechanical system like the RF it would also allow the folding frame to be more rigid (and not have any slop) and (fantasy) make it easier to make models with different lenses (wouldn't a 50mm be nice).

 

[Andy K]

There is a battery compartment on the bottom plate which looks the same as on my 35mm Bessa R3M, suggesting button batteries. I think the rf/focusing will be mechanical. Looking in close up there is a linkage system inside the front cover.

 

[poutnik]

pellicle, if you look at the picture of camera bottom, there is a battery compartment - if the camera is facing you, it's on the left side.

 

[pellicle]

pellicle, if you look at the picture of camera bottom, there is a battery compartment - if the camera is facing you, it's on the left side.

spotted it! Ok ... well just chatting with a mate about stepper motors, they are very low current, perhaps less than even the aperture diaphragm operation

 

[pellicle]

Andy

...I think the rf/focusing will be mechanical. Looking in close up there is a linkage system inside the front cover.

yep, spotted that earlier. Still ... my Bessa I (front lens turns) has a similar appearing mechanism to that, but it is only for support and facilitating folding. I'm uncertain if the structure in the images looks like a structure item or a focus item.

There has to be some electronic coupling between the lens (electronic shutter) and the camera as the dial is there, might be simpler to have an electronic movement of the prism in the rangefinder. Stepper motors are accurate to stuff like 177 positions withing a degree.

still, I have no idea (I'm just speculating)

 

[Loris Medici]

Inclined front standard?

Probably nitpicking here but, have you noticed that the Bessa III shown in the following page:

http://www.voigtlaender.de/cms/voigtlaender/voigtlaender_cms.nsf/id/pa_fdih7jzkae.html

particularly this image:

http://www.voigtlaender.de/cms/voigtlaender/voigtlaender_cms.nsf/id/pa_fdih7jzkae.html/$file/bessa_iii_top_mbp2897.jpg

shows about 1.2 degree inclination of the front standard compared to the film plane?

Is that normal for folders?

 

[Barry S]

Probably nitpicking here but, have you noticed that the Bessa III shown in the following page:

http://www.voigtlaender.de/cms/voigtlaender/voigtlaender_cms.nsf/id/pa_fdih7jzkae.html

particularly this image:

http://www.voigtlaender.de/cms/voigtlaender/voigtlaender_cms.nsf/id/pa_fdih7jzkae.html/$file/bessa_iii_top_mbp2897.jpg

shows about 1.2 degree inclination of the front standard compared to the film plane?

Is that normal for folders?

It's a pre-production model. I think you can count on the lens and film planes being parallel. I have an Ensign Selfix and an Agfa Isolette and both manage to have parallel lens and film planes. The new Fuji/Voightlander should be superior--especially in rigidity of the unfolded camera.

 

[Lee L]

Probably nitpicking here but, have you noticed that the Bessa III shown in the following page:
shows about 1.2 degree inclination of the front standard compared to the film plane?

Is that normal for folders?

That image was not taken centered on the lens axis. It was biased to the right of the camera. Take a look at the lugs on the left and the grip on the right. It appears to me that the taking lens was above the cover braces and forward, near the front right edge of the bellows when the photo was shot. That means there are converging parallels from the taking perspective and nothing's exactly squared away as you're assuming. And that doesn't count possible barrel distortion in the taking lens on whatever digicam this was shot with.

I don't think your assumptions hold, especially to the tenths of degrees. But if you want to dismiss the camera, decrease demand, and keep the price lower based in an internet jpeg, I'm OK with that.

Lee

 

[JBrunner]

That image was not taken centered on the lens axis. It was biased to the right of the camera.

Lee

It is indeed optical convergence in the photograph. The body thickness tapers to the left as well, but the effect is much less evident as it covers a correspondingly smaller arc. (I had to blow it up and put guides to it.)

 

[jp80874]

shows about 1.2 degree inclination of the front standard compared to the film plane?

Is that normal for folders?

It looked closer to 1.15 degrees to me.

John Powers

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'm sure it's just optical convergence in the photo and the camera will be perfectly aligned, but as a practical matter, there was a thread over on the LF forum discussing what the minimum amount of tilt was that anyone used, and the consensus seemed to be that tilts of two degrees or less were hard to set reliably with most cameras and it was difficult to see their effect on the groundglass, and this was for 4x5" and larger formats where there is less DOF.

 

[donbga]

It looked closer to 1.15 degrees to me.

John Powers

Well it looked closer to 1.16 degrees to my eye.

 

[jp80874]

Well it looked closer to 1.16 degrees to my eye.

I'll give you 1.155, but not a .001 of a degree more.

John

 

[Loris Medici]

I'm sure it's just optical convergence in the photo and the camera will be perfectly aligned, but as a practical matter, there was a thread over on the LF forum discussing what the minimum amount of tilt was that anyone used, and the consensus seemed to be that tilts of two degrees or less were hard to set reliably with most cameras and it was difficult to see their effect on the groundglass, and this was for 4x5" and larger formats where there is less DOF.

Thanks David, that's exactly the type of answer I was looking for. (Wasn't looking for idiotic sarcasm, for sure...) BTW, I'm going be one of the first owners of this camera in Turkey. I'm sold -> was waiting for this for a long time... I admire Cosina's (-> Mr. K) determinance / perseverance in providing excellent products for a small / niche market.

 

[jp80874]

Donbga, Don Bryant,
I believe we were misunderstood.
I hope you were not insulted.
I tried not to be.
(Wasn't looking for idiotic sarcasm, for sure...)

John Powers

 

[Lee L]

This being the internet (and just as with email) it's hard to accurately gauge a response. Friendly joking and sarcasm can often be inferred from the same post. I usually take APUG posts as the former, as that's the traditional tenor of the folks here, although there is more than enough insulting sarcasm here as well. My main purpose in posting was to point out the misleading geometry of the photo.

Loris, I didn't mean to insult you. My last sentence was a joke about the negative product nitpicking that one sees elsewhere in APUG, not your question in this thread. My apologies if you took it as insulting. I feel exactly as you do about Kobayashi's work on bringing out niche cameras that fulfil my needs.

My experience is that David's comments and those of folks on the LF thread about minimal lens tilt are correct. I expect the Bessa III to be well aligned, and certainly well within reasonable tolerances for the lens speed and focal length.

Lee

 

[Loris Medici]

No problem, since I got a good answer to the question...

BTW, I like better Fuji version's design with silver colored top plate, folding arms and filter ring, except for the camera strap lugs placement (I prefer vertical mounting like in the Voigtlander). I hope they will make a silver version.

Are the lenses different design? (Haven't read all the posts; sorry if it was alread mentioned.) If this "Heliar" is similar to the screw mount Voigtlander 75/2.5 I have, then it should be a wonderful lens!

 

[Lee L]

Are the lenses different design? (Haven't read all the posts; sorry if it was alread mentioned.) If this "Heliar" is similar to the screw mount Voigtlander 75/2.5 I have, then it should be a wonderful lens!

I don't know if the lenses would be different. I'd suspect both will be Cosina manufactured. Cosina's recent Heliars, as pointed out by others, aren't traditional Heliar designs, and I'm not sure if the recent Cosina "Heliars" are consistent among themselves.

I do feel the same way as you about the Cosina 75 f:2.5. It quickly became one of my favorite lenses. I did a quick constellation shot with it on a telescope drive when I first got it. I was floored at the sharpness of a Fuji Frontier 4x6 print, and then thought "oh, it must be the sharpening of the scan", but it held in the negatives, and in the B&W and transparencies I've shot. A shot of infinitely small points of light (stars) is very revealing of optical quality, and this lens has it in spades.

Lee

 

[Simplicius]

With all the lusty posts of expectation here, I cannot but imagine the guys in FUJI laughing it up as they read these post above...... I imagine something like this is going on ..............

Fuji Sales & Marketing HQ:​

In a small office deep in the bowels of Fuji Heavy industries the assistant sales manager logs on to monitor APUG traffic since yesterday. Shouting across to his Boss after reading the thread on their new folder.

Sales Manager: three more positive statements last night Sir

Boss: Great, you know what to do, the usual

Sales Manager: Ok Sir. Consider it done.

Sales Manager rings Graphics Department, “Hi this is sales, yes same old story … yes the new folder again… three this time, yes that’s it add three by $5 dollar to the manufacturers R.R.P. … strange all these analog people are getting into a frenzy ..We will soon be able to charge what we like” laughter shared down phone as he hangs up.

Hangs up, eyes scan the screen again, still on APUG forums – thinking “oh oh more positive comments, I’ll have to ring graphics again!”

Smirks

 

[Peter Black]

There is a battery compartment on the bottom plate which looks the same as on my 35mm Bessa R3M, suggesting button batteries. I think the rf/focusing will be mechanical. Looking in close up there is a linkage system inside the front cover.

Andy, this week's AP says the battery is a CR2 3 volt lithium battery as shown in the link Dead Link Removed

 

[Fotogeorge]

Andy, this week's AP says the battery is a CR2 3 volt lithium battery as shown in the link Dead Link Removed

I found a 2-pack of CR2s in my cabinet, that are good until 2011. I no longer have the SLR, for which I originally bought the batteries. There must have been a reason that I kept the batteries. I guess that means I'll have to buy the folder camera.

 

[pellicle]

Dave

... but as a practical matter, there was a thread over on the LF forum discussing what the minimum amount of tilt was that anyone used, and the consensus seemed to be that tilts of two degrees or less were hard to set reliably with most cameras and it was difficult to see their effect on the groundglass, and this was for 4x5" and larger formats where there is less DOF.

I feel that I disagree with this. Firstly from a practical standpoing (being a 4x5 and Bessa RF user) I can say that tiny movements not significant on the ground glass on my 4x5 camera do make a difference when using the RF, even at apertures like f8. My RF is a 6x9 camera and uses a 105mm lens, so I would suspect that the 80mm on the 6x7 would perform simmilarly (more so than say a comparison to 4x5 or 35mm where I also use Canon tilt-shift lenses).

This has been a problem for me on the RF. I noticed some problems with the camera being soft on a portrait I took, and careful examination of this showed that it was not "softness" but focusing error. I then found on examining some of the "successful" images that this 'tilt' was observable. Please refer to the images and descriptions in (there was a url link here which no longer exists) thread.

I've solved my problem, but it leads me to believe (using a protractor compass to measure my angles) that less than a degree makes a substantial difference.

To back this up, my 'software' Vademecum suggests that a focal plane tilt of 10° can be obtained when focusing on an object 5 meters away with a lens alteration of only 0.2° (or a movement of 1mm of the top of the front standard) with a camera like Century Graphic. Perhaps some graphic users may like to comment if they are reading. Certainly my issues with the camera at infinity and f8 or f5.6 indicate that uniform focus at infinity can be effected dramatically with much less than 1mm observable movement at the lens "shutter ring" on my Bessa. So I think camera rigidity is essential if you desire to use the camera on shallow DoF picture taking and desire accurate focus for reasonable enlargements. I know I desire these things. If I can't get that then I'd prefer to use another camera.

 

[david b]

A new video on my blog

new video of the camera on my blog

 

[Jarvman]

Sweet lord 6x6 and 6x7! I haven't been following this thread properly. What a beautiful surprise when opening up AP in ASDA tonight. Fuji can chalk up another taker!