Sad Fuji News/Happy Voigtländer News -GF670 in Japan only -Bessa III elsewhere!

[jun]

PRICE INFO FOR GF670

Dear everyone,

Here is the link that the Fuji Film personal who is in charge of this camera development is saying about the price of the GF670:
(unfortunately all Japanese and can’t guarantee that your web browser can correctly display it, but hope you can play the movie clip which is also in Japanese):

http://trendy.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/pickup/20080929/1019183/?P=2

The upper video clip is the one (other one is the one in david b’s blog):

There are lot of other conversation between the interviewer and Fuji Film personal but two important information included in the conversations in first video clip:

******************************
Interviewer (left) asking Fuji Film personal (right, who is in charge of this camera development):

When will this camera be available?
Not determined yet but hopefully we are making effort release it within this year.

How much will it cost?
Not determined yet however we are trying and putting effort to settle down the price of the camera hopefully “around” 300,000 Yen (approx. 3,000USD).
*********************************
My comments and my personal opinion:
The above-mentioned price tag is close that I have guessed (about 250,000 Yen).
This means that if the above video statements are true, this camera will be available somewhere around 250,000 – 280,000 Yen in Tokyo in such stores like Yodobashi Camera.

Or maybe they are just inflating the price for pre-announcement purposely now, and let the customer feel good when they really announce the actual price to be lower than the pre-announcement in the video clip, to let the customer feel good and promote sales.
I don’t know for sure.

I bet the actual suggested retail price will be lower than 300,000 Yen, but I don’t think it will go to half (approx.1500 USD) of the price.

I don’t know the pricing strategy for the overseas version, Voigtleander Bessa III, but I think that chances may be slim to get around 1500 USD.

I have spent more than 150,000 Yen on a GW670II camera (lens fixed, no meter, full manual, lens 90 mm F3.5 was good, but no “wow” performance) when I bought it more than 20 yeas ago.
If this high-tech self-erecting camera is going to be the same 150,000 Yen price, I think this camera is going to be nothing but a steal!!!

Of course, the PRICE is VERY DEPENDENT on how much this camera are going to sell, so if Fuji / Cosina Voigtleander thinks that this camera will sell more than they initially estimated, the price of this camera will definitely go lower so expressing interest to these camera is the very good thing to do.

Even in Japan, I see blog that says this price is way too expensive.
But I will ask, why some 35mm RF camera (well you can change the lens) asking more than 3000USD or more???
You can have better sharpness photo with that camera compared to MF???
How about the thickness including the standard lens when carrying?

My philosophy for the performance “index” for film camera is film area per size and film area per weight.
Then LF has the highest index, but also only want to use handheld, and shoot dim subject, and hold into my real vest pocket so I like and interested in MF self-erecting camera.

One should really realize that it is much more difficult to make a “DECENT” self-erecting camera than the fixed body type than commonly believed (it is not a typical Polaroid folding).
You need the optical axis of the lens to be perfectly perpendicular to the film plane despite you can fold and self erect, or you end up problems near open aperture.
One of the real problem of this type of self erecting camera, is that its looks like old fashioned to average person and looks as if it is not so much difficult build in spite it is very time consuming to build a decent one, but function is limited due to compactness, and the price cannot usually be set high compared to the camera that have similar feature without folding mechanism thus difficult to offset the cost of manufacture for fold and self erect mechanism.

Konica, when there are still active making cameras, they had plans to make a millennium version of there famous “Perl” self erecting camera that they made in 1950’s (idea like the Nikon S3 millennium) but the plan was abandoned since they realized no worker today have the skill and can accomplish to build the such complex mechanism camera with precision.

The Fuji engineer that actually designed the old Fuji GS645 actually confessed that the folding mechanism was inspired (at least referred, copied???) from Voigtleander Perko camera.
It was very hard to at that time when there was no CAD available to the designer (however used computer to analyze the mechanism).
The designer of Fuji GS645 also admitted that in the hey day of self erecting camera, the designer of those camera like Perko, did a admirable job without using any computer to design the folding mechanism.

Looks likes the folding mechanism of GF670 is also similar to those of the Perko, but this is my personal speculation and I may be totally wrong.
But I think it is different than the Bessa II which I have, Bessa II moves the lens board but Fuji don’t.

It is Fuji’s tradition to use a helical focusing for self erecting camera (the RF coupled Super Fujica 6, Fujinar 75mmF3.5 , circa 1955 is already helical focusing RF coupled).

If you don’t need folding, I think camera like Mamiya 7II is a far better choice if you could accept RF.

Everyone has a “DIFFERENT” thoughts, philosophy and priority of request to the features of the camera and also order of the intolerable things (sometimes expressed as “limitation”) of the camera that is depending on his / her application, and capability of its own.
There is no such thing like universal camera that has no shortcomings (except may be in the camera catalog)!

Such camera like GF670 / Bessa III will likely to cause more “debate” than other cameras because there is a very strong point (compact esp. folded), and also have very weak points that which have to pay for its compactness (lens not interchangeable, price etc.).

So I have seen some debatable comments like saying GF670 camera is not lens interchangeable and this is a limiting factor, someone else may say RF already is a limiting factor, self erecting camera is generally fragile.
I say that some mid format SLR camera shutter lag sometimes is a limiting factor, I think the size and the weight is the serious limitation of mid format, even for 35mm SLR / DSLR (I wonder most person are actually accepting the general looks of the camera which are mostly “sticking out lens style”. Oh I think it is terrible, ugly, and it is a very obstacle when storing / carrying but we merely seems to accept that general camera shape???).

All are true, and one must make a correct decision to go for it or not based on one’s application and allowable compromise based for your use and your application, your limitation and philosophy to select the best camera for you.

I have my criteria (ultra low flare when shooting night scene at open aperture) to choose the camera, other person will have other criteria based of your practical application (such as color accuracy), and the test must been done under those conditions, to know the reality, not the general comments on the net.

The current film camera that I use most is “unfortunately” the real Voigtleander Bessa II Apo-Lanthar 105mm F4.5 (Combination Coated) made in 1954 (should be in the display case only).

But I know that from my testing, looking at the image structure on the film under 40X mag, my Bessa II /W Apo-Lanthar meets my strict requirements (no flare on night shots @F4.5, resolution above 50 lp/mm on the Chrome Film @aperture F4.5, handheld, film positioning accuracy measured @center deviation 60um which is acceptable for 120 film camera if considered DOF is about +/- 120 um for F4 lens).

So it naturally it gets to be my most used film camera for my application.
Oh it also slips into my real vest pocket too.

I still have Mamiya RB67SD with K/L Apo lenses and 7II but sold Makina 670 since it lost its competition with Bessa II Apo-Lanthar, the Nikkor 80mm F2.8 @F4.5 will not even come close since there is still flare caused by residual abbreviations at night shots. I occasionally do hand held shots in dim situation even in MF, thus performance at open aperture / near open aperture is a must and also I think Makina 670 is too heavy for this type of camera.

Note: The difference between Apo-Lanthar lens and popular Color-Heliar 105mm F3.5 situated Bessa II is enormous than what is commonly believed and said in the internet world even both are so called Heliar type.
I can say this since I also own Bessa II with Color-Heliar.
One of this reasons is said to be the result of the use of some material on one lens element, which are not found in today’s optical glass, but also this type of material were also actually used in some camera lens made by an Asian country in the 60s – 70s to achieve performance.
For Color-Heliar lens, you need to use at least f/8 or smaller aperture to get acceptable performance and if you use lager aperture than that, it will be a great portrait lens, and suitable for portrait only in today’s standards, so I never use it, but most person will set f/8 or smaller aperture anyway for shooting MF most of the times and the residual abbreviations will make the photo unique artistic 3D Heliar look or plastic look like the Voigtleander catalog says.
This is one of the examples that the rumor in the internet is not always telling all the facts.

To sum it up:
The GF670 / Bessa III may have some problem with the price for film lover to buy this camera if the statements in the video clip is true.
Need to recognize DECENT self-erecting camera can’t come cheap.

Although having better RF, and other features, compared to previous self-erecting camera, at least for my self, lens performance is the key point.

No speculation can be made at the time being for optical performance, only test made under your actual usage will be the real and final judge.

I think that most user of MF cameras are spending money to expensive MF system to obtain better technical quality photos than you can practically get with the 35mm system, so it doesn’t make any sense for the lens to be just good.
It is not 1950’s, now we are competing with “all electronically capture” cameras!
The lens must be outstanding you or it just mean nothing especially with the fixed lens high quality MF camera.

Real quality lens is the only way to understand, recognize and appreciate the power of real quality, capability and performance of the film that you use and show that in your final image and I hope that the lens on the GF670 is such a lens since in the video clip they say that “with this camera, you can take splendid atmospheric pictures that cannot be taken by the digital camera”.

 

[Andy K]

£1700 is a deal killer for me. That is way too expensive for a fixed lens camera, no matter who makes it.

Hopefully they will come to their senses before it is released. If they don't I think this camera will be a monumental flop.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I couldn't justify it for $3000.

 

[Lee L]

I hope they get someone to seriously analyze potential sales for this camera. I doubt it can be so expensive to produce that they have to charge US$2000 - $3000 for it. If they can sell at a profit for $1200, they will make much more money and have a much greater presence in the marketplace than if they sell for $3000, at which point I would expect it to have virtually no sales.

Maybe the Bessa version will be more in line with customer expectations in the US.

Lee

 

[pellicle]

its sad isn't it. Like I said over in the flickr group, its classic "gaman marketing"

but sadly, even if its 240000 yen I'm sure it'll be 2400 euro (instead of 1700)

 

[JBrunner]

At 3 large I'm out. That would buy a big piece of a fine camera involving hardwoods, etc. I could solve my roving MF itch some other way.

 

[jun]

Hello,

Do you know how much MF and LF camera has been made in Japan per month in 2005 (NOT 2008)?

Approx. 200-300 including export.

That includes both MF and LF camera.

That is less than 1/100 of 35mm Focal Plane shutter camera produced in Japan.

Now there is no offical info about the numbers for LF and MF production.

This is why the price seems to be unreasonable.

You understand my point?

Regards,

 

[samnor]

Here is a video about the camera. Shame it is in Japanese, but still worth looking at.
http://davidbram.blogspot.com/2008/10/fuji-voigtlander-video.html

 

[Lee L]

Hello,

Do you know how much MF and LF camera has been made in Japan per month in 2005 (NOT 2008)?

Approx. 200-300 including export.

That includes both MF and LF camera.

That is less than 1/100 of 35mm Focal Plane shutter camera produced in Japan.

Now there is no offical info about the numbers for LF and MF production.

This is why the price seems to be unreasonable.

You understand my point?

Regards,

In English this is called "economies of scale". The more you produce and sell, the lower the price can be. But it can work both ways in that a lower price drives more sales and greater profits with lower profits per unit sold. Nearly zero cameras sold at US$3000 is less profitable than thousands of units sold at US$1200 as long as you're selling above your cost of production and distribution.

Lee

 

[pellicle]

Jun

PRICE INFO FOR GF670

There are lot of other conversation between the interviewer and Fuji Film personal but two important information included in the conversations in first video clip:

******************************
Interviewer (left) asking Fuji Film personal (right, who is in charge of this camera development):

When will this camera be available?
Not determined yet but hopefully we are making effort release it within this year.

How much will it cost?
Not determined yet however we are trying and putting effort to settle down the price of the camera hopefully “around” 300,000 Yen (approx. 3,000USD).
*********************************


My comments and my personal opinion:

...

Such camera like GF670 / Bessa III will likely to cause more “debate” than other cameras because there is a very strong point (compact esp. folded), and also have very weak points that which have to pay for its compactness (lens not interchangeable, price etc.).


To sum it up:
The GF670 / Bessa III may have some problem with the price for film lover to buy this camera if the statements in the video clip is true.
Need to recognize DECENT self-erecting camera can’t come cheap.

...

Real quality lens is the only way to understand, recognize and appreciate the power of real quality, capability and performance of the film that you use and show that in your final image and I hope that the lens on the GF670 is such a lens since in the video clip they say that “with this camera, you can take splendid atmospheric pictures that cannot be taken by the digital camera”.

thanks for your translation, I picked up exactly that in the video (which I saw linked from flickr (where I also commented). My "nihongo" is rather rusty with its many years of disuse.

perhaps the price is 'posturing' and the real "sale price" at places like yodobashi is often 20% below the "recommended retail" prices. I never really understood that system. Still at two grand I'd seriously be looking at an APO lanthar Bessa II instead.

Like you say, lens is everything and I really hope they've put a top performer on this camera. Like you say, everyone has their own criteria, but I don't think this is a camera aimed at the people who will think it looks 'quaint' or antique. I think this is a camera aimed at the people who know what it is.

I hope that Fuji is canvassing the market in these forums, as unlike the days when you bought the GW690, the internet has brought together the disparate photographers from around the world into visible communities like this one.

Thanks again for your long and detailed posting, as my mate "wajima" would say when I'd done him a favour:

"warui desu ne"

(hope that makes sence to you)

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

If Fuji puts an exciting new MF camera into the market, that adds to the market for MF film. It may be that the world market for MF film and Fuji's share of that market is so small that it is irrelevant to anything Fuji does, but if they can get more cameras out there, then they stand to benefit at that end as well. Fuji and Kodak are also the last manufacturers of 220, and I suspect that Fuji is going to be the last man standing in that format.

 

[jun]

In English this is called "economies of scale". The more you produce and sell, the lower the price can be. But it can work both ways in that a lower price drives more sales and greater profits with lower profits per unit sold. Nearly zero cameras sold at US$3000 is less profitable than thousands of units sold at US$1200 as long as you're selling above your cost of production and distribution.

Lee

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Mamiya tried and was unsuccessful for selling the 645 MF camera cheap.
Finally they flopped (as you know, serious reduction of workers).

Fuji is the big company so can they take the risk?

Will see.

Regards,

 

[pellicle]

Do you know how much MF and LF camera has been made in Japan per month in 2005 (NOT 2008)?

Approx. 200-300 including export.

That includes both MF and LF camera.

This is why the price seems to be unreasonable.

You understand my point?

Regards,

I guess that its because they're all "hand made" rather than volume produced. Sadly I think that this will mean that production will move to the Chinese brands like DaYi, Seagul...

I love my Toho, but like my Ducati its clear that its R&D budget was limited

 

[david b]

There is no reason for this camera to be $3000 unless they are only making a few of them. If this is a mass produced camera, I would love to know why it is going to be $3000. I would love to know why this camera costs more than most DSLR and even the Nikon F6. It just does not make sense.

Fuji and Voigtlander would be doing themselves and the film market a huge dis-service by selling this camera at $3000.

 

[eclarke]

Not enough smaller than my Mamiya 7II to buy one...Evan Clarke

 

[chop61]

It's a no go for me at 3k. I'll spring for a CLA'd Bessa II. Oh hell, why bother, my Billy Record is just fine.

 

[Paul Goutiere]

If the Canadian street price was about $1895.00 cdn. I'd reluctantly go for it, but I'd do it.

More than that I'd choose one of my old folders or start hauling around my Hassy 501CM which aside from size, weight etc. would have enormous advantages over this new folder.

(When I read this myself it looks like I'm bargaining with someone. Eh?)

 

[Matus Kalisky]

$3000 would save me at least 1000 euros I am willing to pay for this camera. Actually it wouldn't - I would have to heel my wounds with something like RF645 or ZeissZM :confused:

Fuji - please - do not make this camera just a rich collectors toy. The people here around would really love to USE it ...

 

[lns]

I think $1,200 U.S. is about the right price for this camera.

I don't know about Fuji, but Voigtlander's business model is innovative products for a small market at low prices. Not premium products at collector prices. Just my opinion.

-Laura

 

[Jarvman]

Looks like you can't switch formats mid-roll then eh? Huge bummer. I was thinking that would be too perfect to be true.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

I think the non-switch mid-roll is logical given the camera's constraints. I'm sure that it was a major cost factor in the Xpan/TX-1, and switching between 6x6 and 6x7 would make it really hard to calculate the number of exposures on a roll, or preserve spacing, without adding a motor drive and some kind of optical sensor for the paper backing to count the dots/frame numbers, which would get thrown off when you switched. I think it would be asking for way too much trouble with film handling with medium format. My only wish (and perhaps they'll address this once they see some initial sales numbers) is to make it a fixed 6x9, with a slightly longer lens.

 

[Jarvman]

Yeah I hear what you're saying. Juggling those two formats would be hell. It's alot easier when they're the same size like in the xpan where two frames are just glued together I suppose. Now that you say it was a huge cost factor in developing the xpan, wouldn't it be incredible if someone like Cosina developed a less costly 35mm pano completely negating the dual format. Hmm, it's nice to dream.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Even if you could switch between frames, the two formats are so close in size that there wouldn't be much advantage to it (at least not in terms of saving film), unless you like to print the frame edges.

 

[Barry S]

A price of $3000 or even close makes no sense to me. That kind of money gets you a beautiful used Hasselblad SYSTEM, or Mamiya 7 SYSTEM, or a Leica + lens, or a top quality 8x10 camera, or more Rolleiflex's than you can carry. I'm not sure how many collectors are interested in Cosina cameras. This is a nice fixed lens folder with a few updated features--but at the end of the day it's still a simple camera with very little in the way of collectible qualities.

 

[Chazzy]

Note: The difference between Apo-Lanthar lens and popular Color-Heliar 105mm F3.5 situated Bessa II is enormous than what is commonly believed and said in the internet world even both are so called Heliar type.
I can say this since I also own Bessa II with Color-Heliar.
One of this reasons is said to be the result of the use of some material on one lens element, which are not found in today’s optical glass, but also this type of material were also actually used in some camera lens made by an Asian country in the 60s – 70s to achieve performance.
For Color-Heliar lens, you need to use at least f/8 or smaller aperture to get acceptable performance

That sounds very much like the performance of the Color-Skopar (a Tessar clone). If the Heliar isn't any better than the Skopar at wider apertures, then why was it offered as a premium lens at additional cost over the Skopar version of the camera? Were people just paying for the Heliar mystique?