Rolleiflex Hy6...One of the last medium format cameras in production

Dave Krueger · Oct 21, 2020

ic-racer said:
Just some math. Using the simple lens equation; 1/p + 1/q = 1/f
If subject is at 3600mm (12ft) and focal point is 3400mm (8 inches in front) and focal length is 80mm

focal plane should be 81.82mm behind the lens if correctly focused
focal plane is actually 81.92mm behind the lens as focused

Difference is 0.1mm

The target distance on the first set of tests with the error of 8 inches, was about 8 feet, but I understand your point. The mispositioning of the lens or film plane will be very small. But, the 8 inches was the focusing error with the offset set to +30, so the mispositioning of the film relative to the lens, is greater than the 8 inch error would imply.

The bottom line is that the film is too far away from the lens and that could be caused by the film back. That doesn't explain why the viewing screen seems to be off in the same direction as the film plane (but maybe not by the exact same amount). Of course, it's not impossible for the viewing screen and film plane to both be off, but I've been treating that as very unlikely.

If we assume that the lens to film distance was correct when the camera was calibrated at the factory, something must have changed between now and then. The two things that would have changed, of course, are the lens and film back, which spits in the face of my theory that the problem is in the camera body (although I was kind of counting the film back as part of the body). Good thing I'm sending all three pieces back.

GG12 · Oct 21, 2020

Interesting thought, that it’s the film back that is the issue. Makes sense - something simple like that.

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2020

When the darkslide lever is pulled up, it pushes the pressureplate forward. Maybe an issue with the mechanism in the film back and the rest of the camera is OK. Also, is the lensmount flush with the front of the camera?

GG12 · Oct 21, 2020

Thinking about this further - can’t just be the film plane he’s not getting infinity focus at his viewfinder glass either.

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2020

Your tests make me recall when I got my SLX. The 6006 had just been announced but I could not afford that as a graduate student. I got a used SLX but the film would always bulge forward. I calculated the degree of bulge with tests similar to yours. I used shim-stock to shim the film rails. Yes the film rails came off and I shimmed them rearward about 0.15mm. The rear door would still close. I shimmed the focus screen the same amount. I used the camera like that for 30 years before getting a 6008i.
In fact the image posted above with the 40mm Distagon is from the SLX.

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2020

GG12 said:
Thinking about this further - can’t just be the film plane he’s not getting infinity focus at his viewfinder glass either.

That is disconcerting, as it points to an issue with the body.

GG12 · Oct 21, 2020

Very cool story on the SLX. Not that dissimilar to shimming digital backs.

Not ever seen such issues with focus as he has reported tho. Hopefully it will get sorted out in Germany.

Dave Krueger · Oct 21, 2020

ic-racer said:
I have film in my 6060 Hy6 back now, but all the other Rolleiflex magazines work like this 6008 magazine, and I'm pretty sure the 6060 magazine is the same:

Wow, the 6060 back that I have does not move like that at all. As far as I can tell, the pressure plate just sits behind the opening with a small gap for the film to travel through.

Thanks for the video! When I suggested you make a video I was only joking, but I would never have been able to visualize what you were saying without it because my film back is so different.

Dave Krueger · Oct 21, 2020

GG12 said:
Thinking about this further - can’t just be the film plane he’s not getting infinity focus at his viewfinder glass either.

Yes, this is problematic for most of the more practical theories about what is causing this problem. The only way to reconcile the viewfinder issue is to assume that it just happens to be independently out of position. That seems unlikely, but not impossible.

Dave Krueger · Oct 21, 2020

ic-racer said:
When the darkslide lever is pulled up, it pushes the pressureplate forward. Maybe an issue with the mechanism in the film back and the rest of the camera is OK. Also, is the lensmount flush with the front of the camera?

The chrome lens mount is almost perfectly flush to the front of the camera body. It protrudes maybe a couple thousandths of an inch. Not even enough for your finder nail to grab catch on.

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2020

I'm looking at my Hy6 6060 back now and I may be mistaken. It seems to be constructed based on an original two-piece formula from the 6x4.5 back, where the film gate is not part of the camera body. Since the film gate is inside the 6060 magazine, the pressure plate does not move like the 6008 in the video.
Maybe if you post some pictures of the inside of your 6060 magazine, we might see something out of place.

Dave Krueger · Oct 21, 2020

ic-racer said:
Maybe if you post some pictures of the inside of your 6060 magazine, we might see something out of place.

Here are some pictures, full size and straight from the camera. I have a busy day today, so I will probably be on here a little less.

[edit] Sorry. For some reason I thought these would automatically thumbnail.

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2020

Dent?

Pieter12 · Oct 21, 2020

ic-racer said:
This is a 16"x16" print from the 1990s, exposed with the old 40mm Distagon monster lens. I don't have any large prints from the Super-Angulon 40mm yet, but the negatives are noticeably sharper.
View attachment 257590

I love this photo.

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2020

I have a batch of 8 rolls hanging to dry. About half from the Hy6 and the rest from 6008i. I see one roll from my Yashica 124G with its WA attachment. A little Lo-Fi compared to the Super-Angulon 50mm!

A lot of these images are experimenting with daylight fill-flash. The 6008i and Hy6 do this differently. I kind of like the 6008i method, because you can always see the dial on the side and know you are reducing the fill flash.
With the Hy6, any reduction in the fill-flash is hidden in a menu (accessible by pressing the lightning bolt). It would be easy to shoot rolls and rolls and forget that one had the fill-flash intensity reduced. I don't see any indicator in the viewfinder.

Dave Krueger · Oct 21, 2020

ic-racer said:
View attachment 257651

View attachment 257652

Here are links to three more pics of the areas you highlight. I'll just post the links rather than insert the JPGs into the text. The slots are substantially thinker than the film. See the first picture. I included a piece of developed film for scale. Undeveloped film would, of course, be a little thicker, but still much thinner than the slot. The dents are on both sides and are from the rounded corners of the insert. The black paint is rubbed off all four of those rounded corners on the insert. It looks like the edges of the insert rest on the outer rail and their height above the pressure plate determines the gap for the film slot ([edit] unless the corners are pushing the insert further away).

https://kruegerphoto.com/Pictures/P1030463.JPG
https://kruegerphoto.com/Pictures/P1030464.JPG
https://kruegerphoto.com/Pictures/P1030465.JPG

I am going down to develop the last roll of film before I pack the camera for shipment. These should tell me how close (optically) the viewing screen position is to the film plane position for all three lenses. I was mostly using the split image to focus manually. I used the built in waist level magnifier, but did not use a separate loupe. All shots on the roll were taken with the lens wide open. I moved the camera closer to the target for the wide angle lenses, but the huge depth of field for those lenses is going to make the results less obvious than with the 80mm.

I also took an outdoor infinity shot with the 40 and 50mm. With regard to infinity, Eric told me that these lenses have the hard stop placed at the hyperfocal distance with the lens wide open rather than at infinity. My personal preference would be to be able to focus at least to infinity. Many lenses no longer use hard stops at infinity.

Dave Krueger · Oct 21, 2020

Final film results: Manual focusing based on the ground glass image almost matches the film image, but it still focuses slightly too close wide open on all lenses (80, 50, and 40). The infinity test for the 40 and 50 show that, like the 80mm, distant objects are not in focus at f2.8 with the lens manually set at the infinity stop. This explains why, adjusting the offset to improve the viewfinder image, also improved the film image, making it less out of focus.

This test also shows that Delta 100 film holds up pretty well in the fridge.

Dave Krueger · Oct 21, 2020

ic-racer said:
I have a batch of 8 rolls hanging to dry. About half from the Hy6 and the rest from 6008i. I see one roll from my Yashica 124G with its WA attachment. A little Lo-Fi compared to the Super-Angulon 50mm!

A lot of these images are experimenting with daylight fill-flash. The 6008i and Hy6 do this differently. I kind of like the 6008i method, because you can always see the dial on the side and know you are reducing the fill flash.
With the Hy6, any reduction in the fill-flash is hidden in a menu (accessible by pressing the lightning bolt). It would be easy to shoot rolls and rolls and forget that one had the fill-flash intensity reduced. I don't see any indicator in the viewfinder.

When I was browsing the manual, I thought it didn't have a way of doing fill flash at all. I will have to go back and study it more thoroughly. I did try my Nikon SB-80D with the Hy6, but only using the auto mode built into the flash. I don't do much fill. When I use on-camera flash, it's almost always just bounce flash for family snap shots.

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2020

You need the METZ system. More about that later. I just got back shooting and saw something on my pressure plate of interest. May have found the answer....

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2020

What I found is that the pressure plate is adjustable (like the pressure plate of a 12/24 TLR) and the factory as set the gap. Mine is set to 0.610mm.

There is enough adjustment on the screws for the gap to go all the way to zero. So, I'm thinking the factory can adjust the pressure plate to bring the film closer so your focus offset is less than +30.

I measured Hp5 + Paper = 0.27mm, so the gap on mine is about twice the thickness needed to allow the film to pass freely.

To understand the mechanism, the parallel rails on the camera side are both the same thickness, so the gap for the film is created by this little step-off just above the screw and arrow in the picture. This is different than just about every other pressure plate I have encountered. That step-up rides on the outer rail.

I deleted some prior posts about the pressureplate and film rails pertaining to the 6008i which is different than the Hy6; my error.

Dave Krueger · Oct 21, 2020

ic-racer said:
What I found is that the pressure plate is adjustable (like the pressure plate of a 12/24 TLR) and the factory as decided on the gap. Mine is set to 0.610mm.

View attachment 257683

You have an amazing eye for mechanical stuff. That certainly could increase the lens to film distance and cause the focus limits I'm seeing. Since I have already sealed the box, I don't plan to go in and see what the distance is on mine, but I think it might be bigger than that. I wonder how they settled on such a large gap for the pressure plate. I also just remembered that the backing paper has to go through there as well, so including a piece of film in my pictures wasn't that helpful.

What bothers me more is the dents you noticed. I assume the 4560 back doesn't have that issue given the design differences (adapter). The 6060 is relatively new, but the corners could be ground down a bit to eliminate that problem on future builds.

In any case, you should take a bow. That is an excellent piece of engineering detective work.

Pieter12 · Oct 21, 2020

ic-racer said:
What I found is that the pressure plate is adjustable (like the pressure plate of a 12/24 TLR) and the factory as set the gap. Mine is set to 0.610mm.

There is enough adjustment on the screws for the gap to go all the way to zero. So, I'm thinking the factory can adjust the pressure plate to bring the film closer so your focus offset is less than +30.

I measured Hp5 + Paper = 0.27mm, so the gap on mine is about twice the thickness needed to allow the film to pass freely.

To understand the mechanism, the parallel rails on the camera side are both the same thickness, so the gap for the film is created by this little step-off just above the screw and arrow in the picture. This is different than just about every other pressure plate I have encountered. That step-up rides on the outer rail.

I deleted some prior posts about the pressureplate and film rails pertaining to the 6008i which is different than the Hy6; my error.

One of the film inserts I got back from the factory after a light-leak issue shows that they made adjustments to it. The paint was intact on the ones I sent back. However, the adjustment they made was too much and this particular insert would strain the motor after a few frames and not wind the film completely.

k.hendrik · Oct 21, 2020

After reading 11!!! pages about this camera with apparently a lot of flaws & faults, I think it's time to buy a SL66SE

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2020

Film flatness will always haunt medium format cameras. I don't know much about the back of the SL66SE as to if it holds the film flat. My experience going from 2.8F to SLX to 6008i to Hy6 is that they made the film flatter with each development. I wish I know more about the SL66.

Even before the Schneider optics for this system, there was an article in the Zeiss newsletter about how they had already reached the limit of lens design for 120 film because none of the cameras held the film flat enough the reap the full benefits of the lens.
Since sensors are flat, I'm thinking that was the reason to improve the lenses for this system in the early 2000s, In spite of these great lenses, we are still left with film that can rise up from the pressure plate if it wants

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2020

Pieter12 said:
One of the film inserts I got back from the factory after a light-leak issue shows that they made adjustments to it. The paint was intact on the ones I sent back. However, the adjustment they made was too much and this particular insert would strain the motor after a few frames and not wind the film completely.

View attachment 257684

The pressure plate is spring loaded so if those screws came loose, the pressure plate moves forward under tension to create a zero gap.

Rolleiflex Hy6...One of the last medium format cameras in production

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