Rollei Infrared ISO 200/400. Whaaaaaaat?

[John Wiegerink]

Thanks retina_restoration for a little more clarity on who makes what under what brand name. When all the dust settles as to who makes what I think a "sticky thread" here would be a real help to a lot of folks trying to decide or being blind-sided by relabeling as to which film to buy. It also would save folks some hard earn dollars as shown with Rollei RPX 100 & 400 being the same as Kentmere 100 & 400.

 

[koraks]

When all the dust settles as to who makes what I think a "sticky thread" here would be a real help to a lot of folks trying to decide or being blind-sided by relabeling as to which film to buy.

There's something along those lines here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-films-and-kentmere-100-and-400-films.196304/
I'll sticky it.

 

[John Wiegerink]

koraks,
I and I'm sure other folks, appreciate the "sticky" also. Since I'm just a whole lot Dutch I don't like paying anymore than I have to for my hobby supplies.

 

[koraks]

I can relate! Happy to be of help.

 

[John Wiegerink]

While we're on this topic has anyone here bought this film (8x10 Agfa Aviphot Pan 200 film 20 sheets) from chris.cyan on the big auction site? I checked feed back and I don't see any complaints other than it is not notched and shipping isn't that speedy. It comes out of Mexico.

 

[retina_restoration]

While we're on this topic has anyone here bought this film (8x10 Agfa Aviphot Pan 200 film 20 sheets) from chris.cyan on the big auction site? I checked feed back and I don't see any complaints other than it is not notched and shipping isn't that speedy. It comes out of Mexico.

The seller is Lumina Photo Labs, which you can find mention of on Reddit. It appears to be a highly regarded lab on the "pro" level. I could find no reviews specifically for Lumina, except perhaps some on Facebook, but I cannot view those.

It may be worth your while to try a package of it. It's odd that they are selling packages of 20, not 25, so you are paying $4 per sheet (plus shipping), which is reasonable. As long as they're cutting sheets to properly fit standard holders, that's important. Feel like gambling with $90?

 

[John Wiegerink]

The seller is Lumina Photo Labs, which you can find mention of on Reddit. It appears to be a highly regarded lab on the "pro" level. I could find no reviews specifically for Lumina, except perhaps some on Facebook, but I cannot view those.

It may be worth your while to try a package of it. It's odd that they are selling packages of 20, not 25, so you are paying $4 per sheet (plus shipping), which is reasonable. As long as they're cutting sheets to properly fit standard holders, that's important. Feel like gambling with $90?

Paul,
I just did, gamble that is. I just over all the positive and negative feedback and found nothing pertaining to size so I went ahead and ordered some. Yes, it would have been a little nicer to get 25 sheets for the 90 smackers, but it's still not to bad if it's good fit stock cut to the right size. We'll see I guess?

 

[subtlelikeatrex]

Rollei is just the brand name, which is owned by RCP Technik in Germany. Maco Direct manages the manufacture and distribution of the Rollei films (to the best of my knowledge).
The Rollei branded films are typically coated by Agfa-Gevaert or ORWO (Filmotec) depending on the emulsion, but the Rollei RPX films are manufactured by Harman in the UK and are either Kentmere or “closely related to” Kentmere emulsions. (I’ve compared Kentmere 100 and RPX 100 and my observations suggest they are the same material)
Many of the films sold under the Rollei brand name - particularly the films discussed here under the umbrella of “near infrared” are based on the Aviphot aerial surveillance films from Agfa-Gevaert.
In this era, it’s not at all unusual to find that many films are simply a rebranding of a film made/sold by one of the few actual manufacturers. Remember, there are only a handful of companies that actually make film - Kodak, Harman (Ilford, Kentmere), Fujifilm, Foma, Adox, Lucky, Ferrania, Orwo, Agfa-Gevaert, and InovisCoat (although the current state of InovisCoat is unclear, but it appears that around 2022, InovisCoat was absorbed into Orwo and now operates as a property of Orwo).
So bear in mind when choosing from the scores of film brands that they all come from one of a small group of manufacturers who are contracted to make films under a variety of brand names. Knowing who makes a film can be useful - as someone said earlier, why buy Rollei RPX 100 when the same film can be had as Kentmere100?

This is very helpful to know for cost saving purposes. Thank you, everyone for the insight.

 

[MCB18]

Paul,
I just did, gamble that is. I just over all the positive and negative feedback and found nothing pertaining to size so I went ahead and ordered some. Yes, it would have been a little nicer to get 25 sheets for the 90 smackers, but it's still not to bad if it's good fit stock cut to the right size. We'll see I guess?

Just as a head’s up about the film from Mexico, it’s going to be the same stuff that I was cutting down for a while, NOS from India with 2014 dates at latest. And although I was lucky with my rolls, @rhizomeblur has reported that sone of that film has very obvious heat damage in the form of mottling.

And you aren’t saving that much anyway, I can get it fresh for $100 for 25 sheets… just something to keep in mind.

 

[subtlelikeatrex]

Rollei is just the brand name, which is owned by RCP Technik in Germany. Maco Direct manages the manufacture and distribution of the Rollei films (to the best of my knowledge).
The Rollei branded films are typically coated by Agfa-Gevaert or ORWO (Filmotec) depending on the emulsion, but the Rollei RPX films are manufactured by Harman in the UK and are either Kentmere or “closely related to” Kentmere emulsions. (I’ve compared Kentmere 100 and RPX 100 and my observations suggest they are the same material)
Many of the films sold under the Rollei brand name - particularly the films discussed here under the umbrella of “near infrared” are based on the Aviphot aerial surveillance films from Agfa-Gevaert.
In this era, it’s not at all unusual to find that many films are simply a rebranding of a film made/sold by one of the few actual manufacturers. Remember, there are only a handful of companies that actually make film - Kodak, Harman (Ilford, Kentmere), Fujifilm, Foma, Adox, Lucky, Ferrania, Orwo, Agfa-Gevaert, and InovisCoat (although the current state of InovisCoat is unclear, but it appears that around 2022, InovisCoat was absorbed into Orwo and now operates as a property of Orwo).
So bear in mind when choosing from the scores of film brands that they all come from one of a small group of manufacturers who are contracted to make films under a variety of brand names. Knowing who makes a film can be useful - as someone said earlier, why buy Rollei RPX 100 when the same film can be had as Kentmere100?

Is there evidence to suggest that the Rollei Infrared is still the same as the Rollei Superpan 200 and Retro 400s in 120 film as well? The Superpan and Retro 400s are cheaper in 120 rolls than the Infrared...and if it's really the same thing I'm going to buy the Superpan or Retro. I see the Retro is listed as having the same infrared sensitivity in 120 from B&H so I would guess so.

 

[MCB18]

Is there evidence to suggest that the Rollei Infrared is still the same as the Rollei Superpan 200 and Retro 400s in 120 film as well? The Superpan and Retro 400s are cheaper in 120 rolls than the Infrared...and if it's really the same thing I'm going to buy the Superpan or Retro. I see the Retro is listed as having the same infrared sensitivity in 120 from B&H so I would guess so.

They’re all made from exactly the same film, yeah.

 

[Sanug]

Yes, but don´t forget about the different quality of confectioning in 120 as I wrote in #23. IMHO the Rollei Infrared is worth the higher price.

 

[F4U]

Do they still make Ilford SFX in 120 size? And if so, which is better as an infrared film, that or Rollei? Or all they all just cuts from the same master roll manufactured by the same company? Far be it for Kodak to dust off their old emulsion recipe notes and run off a master roll every year or 2.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Aviphot for me is the winner (135).
SFX 200 is a different film and in 135 I get far weaker NIR response from it.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Do they still make Ilford SFX in 120 size? And if so, which is better as an infrared film, that or Rollei? Or all they all just cuts from the same master roll manufactured by the same company? Far be it for Kodak to dust off their old emulsion recipe notes and run off a master roll every year or 2.

Yes, SFX is still made in 120. Rollei 400 IR is different stock, and has more IR sensitivity than SFX... and finer grain, imo...
Sadly, HIE ain't gonna happen.

 

[MCB18]

Yes, but don´t forget about the different quality of confectioning in 120 as I wrote in #23. IMHO the Rollei Infrared is worth the higher price.

The confectioning seems to vary batch to batch, and only a few batches of Rollei 120 (not just IR) have been confectioned by Ilford. The vast majority is finished by Foma and has the associated problems. I have gotten a lot of backing paper at this point and have never seen any IR film on Ilford backing paper, but have seen several on Foma papers. The only reason I know that ilford does sometimes confection film for Rollei is because I saw one picture of Superpan 200 in Ilford paper on discord…

 

[retina_restoration]

Is there evidence to suggest that the Rollei Infrared is still the same as the Rollei Superpan 200 and Retro 400s in 120 film as well? The Superpan and Retro 400s are cheaper in 120 rolls than the Infrared...and if it's really the same thing I'm going to buy the Superpan or Retro. I see the Retro is listed as having the same infrared sensitivity in 120 from B&H so I would guess so.

I cannot speak to the veracity of the information I’ve found, so take the following with a pinch of NaCl. But it’s very possible that although all of the Rollei “extended red sensitivity” are based on very similar emulsion technology, there are likely subtle differences:

Rollei Retro 80S

• Source stock: Aviphot Pan 80
• Red/NIR sensitivity: Up to ~750 nm
• Features: Orthopanchromatic response, very fine grain, sharp, clear base
• Use with filters: Can yield near-IR effects with deep red or R72 filters

Rollei Retro 400S

• Source stock: Aviphot Pan 400
• Red/NIR sensitivity: Up to ~740–760 nm
• Features: Pushable to 800+, high contrast, moderately fine grain, also has a clear base
• Use with filters: Strong IR effect when used with IR filters like Hoya R72

Rollei Superpan 200

• Source stock: Likely Aviphot Pan 200 or a related surveillance film
• Red/NIR sensitivity: Up to ~775 nm
• Features: Medium-speed panchromatic film with extended red response, slightly lower contrast than 400S
• Use with filters: Can mimic infrared with the right filter and lighting

Rollei Infrared

• Source stock: A dedicated near-IR Agfa aerial emulsion
• Red/NIR sensitivity: Up to ~820–850 nm (Note: the Rollei data sheet for this film states that 750nm is the upper limit, so there is conflicting information about the film's upper sensitivity limit)
• Features:
  • True near-IR film
  • Requires IR filters (R72, 89B, etc.) for full IR effect
  • Grainier and higher contrast
  • Most sensitive to deep red and IR light of the Rollei films

Note that there are differences in the “far red/infrared” sensitivity of the films listed. It’s entirely likely that you will see some difference in your results, depending on which version of Aviphot you choose. The “true IR” Rollei Infrared is likely to deliver more extreme infrared effects than the other films. I have not personally made comparisons between these films.

 

[lamerko]

The Aviphot Pan 400 is probably no longer for sale. The remaining quantities are sold out...
The Rollei Retro 400S is more likely to be the Agfa Aviphot Pan 200.

 

[Sanug]

I recently bought from Fotoimpex 1 (cheaper) roll Retro 400S and 1 (more expensive) roll Rollei infrared.

The box of the infrared states "made in UK". It has the same size and typical black printed Exp. date like Ilford films. The seal is silver with black print, like Ilford and Kentmere has.

The Retro 400S is "Made in Belgium" what indicates towards Agfa Mortsel. The box has the size and the inkless pressed Exp. date like Foma films. The seal is plain white without any print, typical for Foma.

 

[MCB18]

I cannot speak to the veracity of the information I’ve found, so take the following with a pinch of NaCl. But it’s very possible that although all of the Rollei “extended red sensitivity” are based on very similar emulsion technology, there are likely subtle differences:

Rollei Retro 80S

• Source stock: Aviphot Pan 80
• Red/NIR sensitivity: Up to ~750 nm
• Features: Orthopanchromatic response, very fine grain, sharp, clear base
• Use with filters: Can yield near-IR effects with deep red or R72 filters

Rollei Retro 400S

• Source stock: Aviphot Pan 400
• Red/NIR sensitivity: Up to ~740–760 nm
• Features: Pushable to 800+, high contrast, moderately fine grain, also has a clear base
• Use with filters: Strong IR effect when used with IR filters like Hoya R72

Rollei Superpan 200

• Source stock: Likely Aviphot Pan 200 or a related surveillance film
• Red/NIR sensitivity: Up to ~775 nm
• Features: Medium-speed panchromatic film with extended red response, slightly lower contrast than 400S
• Use with filters: Can mimic infrared with the right filter and lighting

Rollei Infrared

• Source stock: A dedicated near-IR Agfa aerial emulsion
• Red/NIR sensitivity: Up to ~820–850 nm
• Features:
  • True near-IR film
  • Requires IR filters (R72, 89B, etc.) for full IR effect
  • Grainier and higher contrast
  • Most sensitive to deep red and IR light of the Rollei films

Note that there are differences in the “far red/infrared” sensitivity of the films listed. It’s entirely likely that you will see some difference in your results, depending on which version of Aviphot you choose. The “true IR” Rollei Infrared is likely to deliver more extreme infrared effects than the other films. I have not personally made comparisons between these films.

If you are getting this data from Rollei datasheets, then keep in mind that for a really long time now some of the datapoints have been extremely out of date, and this is well known. And the 820-850nm claim is complete BS.

And yes, Aviphot 400 been discontinued for around 10 years now, the last true 400 speed Aviphot rolls were 70mm bulk rolls sold between around 2018 and 2020.

 

[retina_restoration]

If you are getting this data from Rollei datasheets, then keep in mind that for a really long time now some of the datapoints have been extremely out of date, and this is well known. And the 820-850nm claim is complete BS.

The current data sheet for Rollei Infrared states that the IR sensitivity only goes up to 750nm, but there are numerous independent sources that suggest 820nm is the cutoff. Which is correct, I do not know. But I'm inclined to believe what the Rollei data sheet currently states, FWIW.
As I said, take the information I provided with a grain of salt. None of it should be taken as irrefutable proof of any specific film's characteristics. The web is rife with a mix of current and outdated information from a variety of sources, some of which are very reliable, some of which are very unreliable. Welcome to the modern Information Age.

 

[MCB18]

The current data sheet for Rollei Infrared states that the IR sensitivity only goes up to 750nm, but there are numerous independent sources that suggest 820nm is the cutoff. Which is correct, I do not know. But I'm inclined to believe what the Rollei data sheet currently states, FWIW.
As I said, take the information I provided with a grain of salt. None of it should be taken as irrefutable proof of any specific film's characteristics. The web is rife with a mix of current and outdated information from a variety of sources, some of which are very reliable, some of which are very unreliable. Welcome to the modern Information Age.

I mean, it’s super easy to test, you can buy 760nm IR filters…

 

[F4U]

On an observational note of humor if I may... This is the only site I've ever seen where the word "confection" is used. Understandable, because people from all over the world post, and the English used in their country varies. In the US, the word would be "manufacture", whereas "confection" is regarded as the making of candy, treats, and sweet pastries. Such as confectioners' sugar, which is the powdered sugar on a Little Debbie doughnut. But I guess in the case of infrared film, I suppose "confection" would also be appropriate, if you enjoy photography, finding yourself with a rare opportunity to be out on a sunny summer day in a pictuesque countryside, with rolling green meadows, a deep blue sky and big puffy white clouds, a roll of infrared film IS a "sweet treat".

 

[MCB18]

On an observational note of humor if I may... This is the only site I've ever seen where the word "confection" is used. Understandable, because people from all over the world post, and the English used in their country varies. In the US, the word would be "manufacture", whereas "confection" is regarded as the making of candy, treats, and sweet pastries. Such as confectioners' sugar, which is the powdered sugar on a Little Debbie doughnut. But I guess in the case of infrared film, I suppose "confection" would also be appropriate, if you enjoy photography, finding yourself with a rare opportunity to be out on a sunny summer day in a pictuesque countryside, with rolling green meadows, a deep blue sky and big puffy white clouds, a roll of infrared film IS a "sweet treat".

Confectioning/finishing is not the actual manufacture of the film, that is a separate step. First the film is coated in giant rolls about 54-60” wide, and several thousand feet long. That is the actual manufacturing step.

Confectioning/finishing involves slitting the roll into many “pancakes” that are the correct width for the format being made, perforating (if needed) and then cutting to length and rolling in a cassette, on a spool, into backing paper, onto a core, or run through a sheet cutter and notched. Then it’s put in its final retail packaging. I think generally it’s called confectioning in the UK/EU and finishing in US/CN.

Edit: out of curiosity I looked it up, the definition of confect is “to put together from varied material, prepare, preserve”, and it seems to have widespread use in manufacturing as a synonym for the final preparations to pack a product, and the packing process itself. So not just something that’s exclusive to film.

 

[F4U]

Confectioning/finishing is not the actual manufacture of the film, that is a separate step. First the film is coated in giant rolls about 54-60” wide, and several thousand feet long. That is the actual manufacturing step.

Confectioning/finishing involves slitting the roll into many “pancakes” that are the correct width for the format being made, perforating (if needed) and then cutting to length and rolling in a cassette, on a spool, into backing paper, onto a core, or run through a sheet cutter and notched. Then it’s put in its final retail packaging. I think generally it’s called confectioning in the UK/EU and finishing in US/CN.

Edit: out of curiosity I looked it up, the definition of confect is “to put together from varied material, prepare, preserve”, and it seems to have widespread use in manufacturing as a synonym for the final preparations to pack a product, and the packing process itself. So not just something that’s exclusive to film.

Oh, well. I remember my German (language) teacher who often said "das macht nichts", meaning "it doesn't matter". Or in the US south, it would be "it don't make no nevermind". English is a funny language, in that there are a number of words applicable to mean the same thing. German (Deutsche sprache) always seemed to be a logical language where words were often made up of several other words, all shoved together to make one 40-letter word.
As for Kodak to make HEI again, I hardly expect that. But all these "near infrared" films all seem to start off at 720 and drop off to nothing after that. I'm not asking for HEI like the good old days. but certainly they must have a smaller coating machine in the building, where they can take some of the emulsion mixture for Tri-X and put a little of their magic dye in it to stretch it out to 800 maybe. We're not asking for thermal photography in laboratory study. Oh, well. Das macht nichts.