Rodinal gets better with age?

markbarendt · Nov 15, 2013

It should work either way for my purpose. Grain is a characteristic of the film not the image in the film. Grain should always focus perfectly.

if the grain is sharp and the subject less so, then there is either focus or motion blur or distortion coming from the lens/filters.

If the grain has changed from sharp to fuzzy or the other way over time then the problem/change is in the processing or printing system somewhere.

Richard S. (rich815) · Nov 15, 2013

Man I wish I had as much time to shoot as some of you guys do to post.

StoneNYC · Nov 15, 2013

rich815 said:
Man I wish I had as much time to shoot as some of you guys do to post.

Sometimes I post while shooting, and sometimes I post while developing, especially when it's a stand development, or a long exposure

StoneNYC · Nov 16, 2013

MattKing said:
I'd be very surprised if there hasn't been some change in Rodinal, considering what it has gone through in the last decade or so.

Well the guy who's the representative for Adox that post on the forum said so on the forum and I don't think he would post publicly something that wasn't true for fear of being sued...

Curt · Nov 16, 2013

I've used Agfa Rodinal since the 1970's. The main reason I changed to Pyrocat HD was the end of Agfa Rodinal. I bought two cases when it was announced that Agfa was ceasing production. There are other manufacturers making a "similar" formulation. I found the ease of use, consistency, and results were the best for me.

I've used it from old glass bottles to the last issue in plastic bottles. I have never had bad developer or seen any definable differences from bottle to bottle.

MattKing · Nov 16, 2013

Originally Posted by MattKing (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
I'd be very surprised if there hasn't been some change in Rodinal, considering what it has gone through in the last decade or so.

StoneNYC said:
Well the guy who's the representative for Adox that post on the forum said so on the forum and I don't think he would post publicly something that wasn't true for fear of being sued...

I'm not saying the formula has been changed. I'm saying that all the subtle effects of factory changes, changes in sources for bottles and caps, changes in personnel and other more subtle changes in circumstances most likely have resulted in some changes, especially if you are comparing an old, almost empty bottle, and a new bottle manufactured quite recently.

StoneNYC · Nov 16, 2013

MattKing said:
Originally Posted by MattKing (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
I'd be very surprised if there hasn't been some change in Rodinal, considering what it has gone through in the last decade or so.

I'm not saying the formula has been changed. I'm saying that all the subtle effects of factory changes, changes in sources for bottles and caps, changes in personnel and other more subtle changes in circumstances most likely have resulted in some changes, especially if you are comparing an old, almost empty bottle, and a new bottle manufactured quite recently.

Yes, the dust is probably different...

Adox also has the OLD Rodinal for sale too

I've been meaning to pick up a bottle for fun, curios what I would get.

Xmas · Nov 16, 2013

StoneNYC said:
No I checked with Adox directly, the stuff I have is the original Rodinal formula made by / labeled Adox Adonal (about a year or two ago adox attained the rights to fully make the original version with no alteration separating them from those that make the R09 version, The Adox representative told me that they actually had also finally purchased the name and that on future productions they would actually be able to label the bottles "Rodinal" , so this is not the R09 version ... But original.

Yea, we need Ron to get in here and comment

Ok but the Agfa Rodinal has changed over the years e.g. rescently (in 2004 I think) they changed to a formula with KBr a strong restrainer.
And the pre and post WWII concentrations were different
The Adox person is probably saying they are using one of Agfas formula but probably not the KBr version.
But even if you make it out of painkiller and drain cleaner it should have the same signature

Alan Johnson · Nov 16, 2013

StoneNYC said:
It's too bad that I don't have anymore of that old bottle to do a serious comparison, however I could always throw a mini bottle of it open and leave that there for a couple of days and then see what happens as the stuff crystallizes and darkens, and if that in fact makes a sharper image if I do a direct comparison on the same roll of film or something.

IMO the easiest thing to measure is the pH of the working solution.If this was done using fresh Adonal compared to oxidized Adonal it would at least demonstrate if there was some measurable difference between the chemistry of the two.

StoneNYC · Nov 16, 2013

Alan Johnson said:
IMO the easiest thing to measure is the pH of the working solution.If this was done using fresh Adonal compared to oxidized Adonal it would at least demonstrate if there was some measurable difference between the chemistry of the two.

Sadly I didn't save the old bottle, so I have to just use this one up and see if in the end he crystallizes, however as I said before the lid actually cracked on the old bottle so I'm not really sure if that will change I also don't know if things that separate so if the water content evaporated and somehow added more concentration to the solution, that also might have an effect but that would be more about the dilution ratio of the film, I guess they're just too many factors to realistically come up with an answer without taking the actual time to do every single step exactly as before and created new batch of "old" Rodinal

Curt · Nov 17, 2013

I kick myself for tossing out all those empty bottles but back then I never thought they would stop profuction. I'm even having a hard time finding a one gallon Boston brown jug. 1/2 gallon and smaller, no problem. It's the times I suppose.

john_s · Nov 17, 2013

I think there was a post here from Robert Vonk not long ago when he measured some decline in modern Rodinal (or renamed equivalent) over a fairly short period (a year or two maybe?). Maybe it takes a careful test with measurements and very constant processing to determine the matter.

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2013

john_s said:
I think there was a post here from Robert Vonk not long ago when he measured some decline in modern Rodinal (or renamed equivalent) over a fairly short period (a year or two maybe?). Maybe it takes a careful test with measurements and very constant processing to determine the matter.

Well there's two different things were talking about, I don't know if Roberts measured actual Adox Adonal (original Rodinal formula) or if he measured one of the other variants because the other ones for example R09 are not the same, they contain slightly different chemical mixtures, and do not last as long. They still process relatively the same as long as their new, but if left on the shelf for 10 years the R09 will not last as long...

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2013

Curt said:
I kick myself for tossing out all those empty bottles but back then I never thought they would stop profuction. I'm even having a hard time finding a one gallon Boston brown jug. 1/2 gallon and smaller, no problem. It's the times I suppose.

Pretty sure B&H has them, they did a few months ago I bought four of them. They do seem to go in and out of stock, but they do keep re-stocking them, also I believe photographers formulary also has them, I just find it easier to order from B&H because they have an iPhone app that connects you to all the products in their store and it's really easy to search for stuff, make wishlists, etc.

MattKing · Nov 17, 2013

The real question is whether Stone gets better with age :devil:

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2013

MattKing said:
The real question is whether Stone gets better with age :devil:

You mean I'm supposed to believe that I'm not the best there is ever? I don't know if I can handle this kind of mind shattering realization!

Athiril · Nov 17, 2013

IF you want to increase acutance in Rodinal, add up to 5mg/L of Potassium Iodide to working solution. Works quite well form e.

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2013

Athiril said:
IF you want to increase acutance in Rodinal, add up to 5mg/L of Potassium Iodide to working solution. Works quite well form e.

Hmm, ok, can you explain what it does and why it works? Thanks

Athiril · Nov 17, 2013

See PE's comment (first comment).
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I've found it to have an acutance in most cases though with Rodinal, YMMV. Rodinal has been described elsewhere as a medium actuance developer not a true high acutance developer, and I tend to agree, it may just seem high compared to all the solvent developers, which is almost all the rest.

It also punched up the grain last time I tried out potassium iodide addition, with HP5+ though iirc (but was to a dev I had made and played with, though should be same principle).

Gerald C Koch · Nov 18, 2013

Athiril said:
IF you want to increase acutance in Rodinal, add up to 5mg/L of Potassium Iodide to working solution. Works quite well form e.

Do you have some verifiable data such as photomicrographs to substantiate your claim? As previously mentioned grain and acutance are highly subjective. The use of potassium iodide is mentioned for highly dilute Metol developers that are most often recommended for producing edge effects. In addition the amount of iodide specified is far higher than that mentioned by Geoffrey Crawley for use with FX-1.

miha · Nov 18, 2013

Which developers are considered true acutance developers then? Beutler, Crawley's FX family perhaps?

Gerald C Koch · Nov 18, 2013

miha said:
Which developers are considered true acutance developers then? Beutler, Crawley's FX family perhaps?

There are many acutance developers. Potassium iodide does not mystically convert rodinal to an acutance developer. In fact if you read Crowley's articles in the BJ potassium iodide was not added to increase acutance but for another reason associated with lens flare and certain lens aberrations IIRC. He mentions specifically that its use is unnecessary unless a very high quality of lens is being used.

miha · Nov 18, 2013

Can you name a few?

Gerald C Koch · Nov 18, 2013

Several dilute catechol and sodium hydroxide formulas
Highyly dilute DK-50 with added metaborate
Ethol TEC, Neofin Blue are commercial products

Tom1956 · Nov 18, 2013

Is all this hair-splitting?

Rodinal gets better with age?

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Rodinal gets better with age?

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