Rodinal gets better with age?

[StoneNYC]

How was my statemen misleading when I clearly said that the two MSDS differ is beyond me.

Probably because I don't know what an MSDS is lol

 

[miha]

Aha, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_safety_data_sheet

 

[miha]

But we are only at four pages.

With 12% juice left in your battery, you'll never make it*.

*I should have said: you better hurry

 

[Xmas]

Probably because I don't know what an MSDS is lol

google knows what MSDS is or any TLA

 

[StoneNYC]

google knows what MSDS is or any TLA

TLA?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

An MSDS can give lots of information. For commercial products it will list most of the ingredients and their approximate concentrations. There are a few exceptions; non-dangerous chemicals present in small amounts may not be listed and chemicals that are trade secrets are usually marked as such. You could use the MSDS's to compare the various Rordinal incarnations.

 

[Ian Grant]

An MSDS can give lots of information. For commercial products it will list most of the ingredients and their approximate concentrations. There are a few exceptions; non-dangerous chemicals present in small amounts may not be listed and chemicals that are trade secrets are usually marked as such. You could use the MSDS's to compare the various Rordinal incarnations.

The Rodinal MSDS sheets as Agfa collapsed are an eye opener as some are/were rather more accurate and they matched the post Agfa Gevaert merger formula.

Ian

 

[Alan Johnson]

The reason I asked is that I was unaware of any literature on the subject. I could not see any plausible hydrolysis other than the formation of p-aminophenol.......

Something like the attached, producing hydroquinone and methylamine?
If that is unlikely it is even more unlikely with p-aminophenol which has an equation producing gaseous ammonia.

 

[john_s]

An MSDS can give lots of information. For commercial products it will list most of the ingredients and their approximate concentrations. There are a few exceptions; non-dangerous chemicals present in small amounts may not be listed and chemicals that are trade secrets are usually marked as such. You could use the MSDS's to compare the various Rordinal incarnations.

Another complication is that MSDS documents are prepared according to local regulations, so, for example, the Australian ones often had more detail than those of the USA. This was the case at least for companies that actually had subsidiaries in Australia, such as Agfa and Ilford (and maybe Kodak though I never looked for one).

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Something like the attached, producing hydroquinone and methylamine?
If that is unlikely it is even more unlikely with p-aminophenol which has an equation producing gaseous ammonia.

Both ammonia and methylamine have very distinctive odors that I have never detected in aged bottles of Rodinal and Kalogen.

 

[Xmas]

TLA?

google TLA first hit is

...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TLA

 

[Alan Johnson]

Both ammonia and methylamine have very distinctive odors that I have never detected in aged bottles of Rodinal and Kalogen.

The metol based developers where the manufacturer claims a shelf life of 6 months in a full sealed bottle may (my theory) decompose by hydrolysis , unlike Rodinal.
In the attachment I posted above for simplicity I left out 1/2 H2SO4 from the metol side.This may react with methylamine converting it to a less fragrant form.
Howevever since old developer from a sealed bottle is sometimes brown this simple scheme giving methylamine sulfate is not a full explanation, which is not known.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The metol based developers where the manufacturer claims a shelf life of 6 months in a full sealed bottle may (my theory) decompose by hydrolysis , unlike Rodinal.
In the attachment I posted above for simplicity I left out 1/2 H2SO4 from the metol side.

In a highly alkaline developer like Kalogen the sulfuric acid portion of the metol has already been neutralized. Any ammonia or amine would be released unchanged.

 

[ROL]

Rodinal gets better with age?

Wow. A buck and a half of posts in two weeks. The corollary is that I get better with age using Rodinal. Fine notes and smooth going down, like aged whiskey (...so I'm told).

 

[Alan Johnson]

In a highly alkaline developer like Kalogen the sulfuric acid portion of the metol has already been neutralized. Any ammonia or amine would be released unchanged.

Why so? If you add ammonium chloride to Kalogen developer there is no evolution of ammonia?
How is methylamine sulfate different?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Why so? If you add ammonium chloride to Kalogen developer there is no evolution of ammonia?
How is methylamine sulfate different?

No, perhaps I didn't make it clear. In a highly alkaline developer any ammonia and amine will be released as it forms.

 

[Alan Johnson]

In a highly alkaline developer any ammonia and amine will be released as it forms.

This probably does happen in the B bath of Thornton's 2 bath developer which has an amine-like smell after some use . It contains carried-over metol but notably no sulfite.
In old metol developers with sulfite in sealed bottles there is no amine smell.Maybe amine is formed and reacts with sulfite.

 

[Ronald Moravec]

Staying perhaps usable but certainly not the same as fresh. The useful life can be extended by transferring the concentrate to small glass bottles.

This is the key. I just completed 12 year experiment with a bottle used only for the experiment. Crystals formed and I quit. The film development was fine for 12 years.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Trying to figure out what will happen a priori during a chemical reaction, particularly with organic chemicals can be very difficult. For aromatic compounds electrophilic substitution on a benzene ring has a profound effect. One must consider electron density at particular reaction sites. Then there is the matter of the stereo geometries involved. As an example a bulky group can shield the sites immediately next to it. Then chemicals are three-dimensional entities. What looks possible with a two-dimensional representation on the printed page may not happen.

So does hydrolysis occur with rordinal type developers. I must fall back on an empirical answer in that I have never observed it. If it were to occur then Rodinal would not have its fabled longevity.

 

[StoneNYC]

This is the key. I just completed 12 year experiment with a bottle used only for the experiment. Crystals formed and I quit. The film development was fine for 12 years.

Crystals in Rodinal is normal, did you actually develop anything? Just shake up the crystals and they re-dissolve, if you don't want it send me the bottle! Seriously.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Crystals in Rodinal is normal, did you actually develop anything? Just shake up the crystals and they re-dissolve, if you don't want it send me the bottle! Seriously.

Warming the bottle also helps.

 

[Xmas]

Well there's two different things were talking about, I don't know if Roberts measured actual Adox Adonal (original Rodinal formula) or if he measured one of the other variants because the other ones for example R09 are not the same, they contain slightly different chemical mixtures, and do not last as long. They still process relatively the same as long as their new, but if left on the shelf for 10 years the R09 will not last as long...

If you can make predictions like that you should be betting on horsies.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

If you decant or filter it won't last as long.
Zorkicats painkiller trial samples were still ok last time I looked...

 

[StoneNYC]

If you can make predictions like that you should be betting on horsies.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

If you decant or filter it won't last as long.
Zorkicats painkiller trial samples were still ok last time I looked...

True

 

[#1 Son]

Both ammonia and methylamine have very distinctive odors that I have never detected in aged bottles of Rodinal and Kalogen.

Am I to understand that you actually own a bottle of Kalogen from 1924, the last time it was ever made. I own three bottles of 30 year old Rodinal and they are in great shape and I just purchase three 1 gallon cans of UFG off of E-bay dated 06/07/1961, and use it today, and it is good as if made yesterday.

#1 Son

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Am I to understand that you actually own a bottle of Kalogen from 1924, the last time it was ever made.

Unfortunately no, I make my own modified version of the formula. I have a control bottle of this formula that is 7 years old at present.