Rockland Colloid - Should I bother?

DonF · Mar 29, 2018

jnanian said:
hi again

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/rockland-colloid-should-i-bother.112558/page-3#post-1817235
donF speaks about havng adhesion issues with trophy aluminum plates. i am guessing that maybe what you
have might be similar but a different "brand" ? he solved his problem by cleaning the plates well and then putting a layer of gelatin on the plate as a sub layer/
photoengineer warns about food grade gelatin, you might contact photographers formulary or artcraft chemical or bostick and sullivan
and purchase some 250 / photo grade gelatin. its pretty inexpensive .

i have my developer (used) in a haul-drum. not sure what your recovery situation might be. its best to do a little research for your area about
what you use and how it can be disposed. i'm also trying to figure out a non-thiocyanate developer. cause id rather not use harsh chemistry

good luck !

The B&H plates are listed as having a gloss finish with a protective coating. They sound a great deal like repackaged plates from Main Trophy Supply. The Rockland plates are much thinner and have a slightly textured anodized-appearing finish.

I had major adhesion issues with the glossy plates. The AGPLus just floated off in the fixer. Gelatin subbing was no help, and is only recommended by Rockland for vitreous surfaces with AGPlus. A satisfactory solution was to wet-sand the plates lightly with 1200 grit wet/dry sandpaper, followed by a scrub with sodium carbonate solution, followed by a thorough rinse. I still had issues with emulsion popping off the plates after time, but some seemed fine.

I just dumped the developer down the drain to city sewers when done, as with common Dektol.

Best,

Don

nmp · Mar 29, 2018

DonF said:
The B&H plates are listed as having a gloss finish with a protective coating. They sound a great deal like repackaged plates from Main Trophy Supply. The Rockland plates are much thinner and have a slightly textured anodized-appearing finish.

I had major adhesion issues with the glossy plates. The AGPLus just floated off in the fixer. Gelatin subbing was no help, and is only recommended by Rockland for vitreous surfaces with AGPlus. A satisfactory solution was to wet-sand the plates lightly with 1200 grit wet/dry sandpaper, followed by a scrub with sodium carbonate solution, followed by a thorough rinse. I still had issues with emulsion popping off the plates after time, but some seemed fine.

I just dumped the developer down the drain to city sewers when done, as with common Dektol.

Best,

Don

I wonder if anyone used an aminosilane coupling agent for this purpose. B&S sells one that should work for glass as well as aluminum. Have to make sure the surfaces are clean without any organics (need -OH's on the substrate to condense with -OH's of silane.)

AigBlender · Jun 10, 2018

DonF said:
My home brew "Rockland" developer was used for all these.

Don

In your opinion 1 litre of Rockland developer is = 145g Dektol powder, 50g Sodium Sulfate anhydrous, and 30g Ammonium Thiocyanate. Mixed as a working solution 1:1 or 1 part stock to 2 parts water,

I haven't prepared one gallon with the Dektol, part 2 and 3, but one liter. Now I made another preparation of one liter but the result are different. Probably I can't use the Dektol (also if is in powder) that remain (is bad) ? My silver emulsion is expired some years ago, but I use it. For the moment I haven't again obtain a 4x5" complete, after developer and fixer a part of the image pell off the plate. Where is/are my mistakes ?

On the Rockland site I've asked how clean the plates before Ag-Plus, he answered me only with alcool.

I put on lighmeter 0,8 ASA sensibility, not 1,5 ASA (how you said).

I don't find Ag-Plus in Italy, can I use Rollei black Magic 3 ?

Have you tried this ?

The plate was 0.5mm aluminium sprayed with black polyurethane paint and coated with Rollei "black magic" emulsion. Exposure 4 sec @ f8. Developed in the following for 3 minutes:

5g Ammonium Thiocyanate

15 ml Rollei RBM5 hardener

30 ml Ilford Multigrade developer

270 ml water

No stop, just a water rinse. Fixed in Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+4 and 10 minute wash in cold water.

I hope in a answer.

Thank you.

AigBlender · Jun 25, 2019

I need to know the gelatine bloom 250 concentration that Don (or other) use on the plates, before use Ag Plus.
I hope in an answer
Thank you

Photo Engineer · Jun 25, 2019

In Europe, use Rousselot photo grade gelatin or get some from Fotoimpex. Mirko has some good stuff.

PE

AigBlender · Jun 25, 2019

Thank you, but the concentration of the gelatin that I can use ?
Thank you

Photo Engineer · Jun 25, 2019

The concentration of the mixture at the time of coating should be between 5 and 10%. If it is too low or too high, there are problems.

PE

photojournaliste · Oct 30, 2020

I'm curious about the ratio of Dektol / Sodium Sulfate / Ammonium Thyocynate that Rockland mentions on their website on SDS (https://rockaloid.com/instructions-msds-links)

Roberto M Serrini · Feb 7, 2021

I just used the Rockland Tintype kit and shot on my 130 year old Premo B camera ... and ... well ... it worked. Really fun process, but you definitely work for it, and I think their development times listed in the instructions are nuts... anyway, did a write up and video https://cineclast.com/2021/02/04/using-a-130-year-old-camera-to-make-a-tintype-photograph/

Renato Tonelli · Feb 7, 2021

Liked the video.

urnem57 · Feb 16, 2021

This may be a dumb question, but here goes. I am completely new to dry plate/glass plate/tintype/prints made on glass plates photography and don’t completely understand emulsions & developers. Liquid emulsions (Foma, Rollei Black Magic, Liquid Light) can be used to produce both a negative image (exposed with a camera) and/or a positive image (exposed with an enlarger)? Do I understand this correctly with the only difference being the type of developer used (film/paper)? When I buy paper & film, they are not the same emulsions on both surfaces, are they? If it is the case that the same liquid emulsions can produce negative and positive images, how is this possible? I need to understand which emulsion(s?) I need for the following: 1. producing negatives on glass plates exposed with a camera. 2. producing positive prints with an enlarger on glass plates. 3. for tintype images, will any of these emulsions work provided they are put on a black plate and developed with Rockland’s tintype developer?
Thank you and I am looking forward to the education & better understanding before I jump in.

removed account4 · Feb 17, 2021

urnem57 said:
This may be a dumb question, but here goes. I am completely new to dry plate/glass plate/tintype/prints made on glass plates photography and don’t completely understand emulsions & developers. Liquid emulsions (Foma, Rollei Black Magic, Liquid Light) can be used to produce both a negative image (exposed with a camera) and/or a positive image (exposed with an enlarger)? Do I understand this correctly with the only difference being the type of developer used (film/paper)? When I buy paper & film, they are not the same emulsions on both surfaces, are they? If it is the case that the same liquid emulsions can produce negative and positive images, how is this possible? I need to understand which emulsion(s?) I need for the following: 1. producing negatives on glass plates exposed with a camera. 2. producing positive prints with an enlarger on glass plates. 3. for tintype images, will any of these emulsions work provided they are put on a black plate and developed with Rockland’s tintype developer?
Thank you and I am looking forward to the education & better understanding before I jump in.

hi urnem57
the way to think of these bottled / liquid emulsions is they are paper emulsion. as you know paper emulsion when projected on or contact printed on ( with a negative ) it produces a positive image, and if you put it in your camera you will get a paper negative. for these uses it uses a regular old paper developer, some people use a film developer when making paper negatives because paper sometimes tends to be higher contrast than film when used in-camera and film developers are less "active" ( i hope i am using the right word here ) so it won't be as aggressive and give you a wicked contrasty negative. some remedy this by using a yellow filter infront of the lens like they would with their enlarger to tame the contrast, others flash the paper to turn it into something a little less contrast forward.
but .. using this emulsion for tintypes on paper, glass, tin, plastic &c. .. they require a different developer. they do different things.. some seem to actually reverse the image, others bleach and stain the image to make it seem reversed ...
to answer your questions .. when you want a negative on glass ( &c ) use a regular developer when you want the tintype-ish image use the rockland developer or something similar. ive been doing it off an on for a long while and by no means am an expert ( the more i do the less i know )
if you want to try pre-made plates and get info on tips and suggestions on using as both to get in camera negatives and maybe find info on reversal images check out jason's site. >>>>>. https://www.pictoriographica.com

DonF · Feb 17, 2021

urnem57 said:
If it is the case that the same liquid emulsions can produce negative and positive images, how is this possible?

Even a normal film negative may be viewed as a positive if placed emulsion side up in a bright light against a black background and tilted so the light reflects against the emulsion. The Rockland kit uses high silver content AG-Plus emulsion, which is necessary for good results. The developer is formulated to produce extremely fine reduced silver particles, on the order of light wavelengths. These particles are much more reflective than normal developer grain. When viewed against the blackened surface of the tintype plates, the image appears positive as the black showing through the emulsion is darker than the reflective reduced silver.

I reverse-engineered Rockland's developer formula by the MDS and their own mixing instructions. It is just regular Dektol with ammonium thiocyanate and sodium sulfate.

I have used their kit extensively. Unless you use Rockland's anodized plates, adhesion of the emulsion is a real issue. I have made tintypes on both Main Trophy Supply glossy tintype plates and ambrotypes on glass. The emulsion tends to lift off the plate unless subbed with albumin or hardened with an extra emulsion hardener bath.

Don

urnem57 · Feb 17, 2021

Perfect. This is exactly the explanation that I was hoping for. Would it be possible to learn the recipe for this developer? I think I saw that “chrome alum” can be used for subbing glass? Does hardener mixed with the emulsion work? I have a feeling that just jumping in and experimenting is how I will learn, but I always like to go into new things with some type of plan based on research. Thank you.

DonF · Feb 17, 2021

urnem57 said:
Perfect. This is exactly the explanation that I was hoping for. Would it be possible to learn the recipe for this developer? I think I saw that “chrome alum” can be used for subbing glass? Does hardener mixed with the emulsion work? I have a feeling that just jumping in and experimenting is how I will learn, but I always like to go into new things with some type of plan based on research. Thank you.

The recipe is buried in this thread back several years, in bold type. I looked up the unlabeled ingredients in their bulk kit in the MDS, then calculated the formula from their own mixing instructions in the kit. It worked just like their stuff.

DonF · Feb 17, 2021

urnem57 said:
Perfect. This is exactly the explanation that I was hoping for. Would it be possible to learn the recipe for this developer? I think I saw that “chrome alum” can be used for subbing glass? Does hardener mixed with the emulsion work? I have a feeling that just jumping in and experimenting is how I will learn, but I always like to go into new things with some type of plan based on research. Thank you.

Chrome alum (purple crystals) is used as a hardener, not for subbing, but has the same effect of improving adhesion and reducing reticulation or wrinkling of the coating. I tried albumin and Knox gelatin for subbing. Both worked, but not particularly well. Proper photographer’s gelatin would be far superior.

urnem57 · Feb 17, 2021

It looks like Rollei makes a gelatin for this purpose.

DonF · Feb 19, 2021

urnem57 said:
Perfect. This is exactly the explanation that I was hoping for. Would it be possible to learn the recipe for this developer? I think I saw that “chrome alum” can be used for subbing glass? Does hardener mixed with the emulsion work? I have a feeling that just jumping in and experimenting is how I will learn, but I always like to go into new things with some type of plan based on research. Thank you.

As referred to in an earlier comment, another way to render a positive image from a negative is by reversal processing.

The basic process is to develop an over-exposed negative image to completion, bleach the image in a non-halogenating bleach to whiten the dark areas of the negative and render them light-insensitive, fog the plate in room light, and develop again to darken the fogged regions.

This is essentially the old black and white photo booth process. I've been exposing #2 graded paper in my 4x5 camera for years and reversal processing the image to give a unique positive print. It is similar in speed and effect to wet plate collodion. Cheap and easy to do, although the bleach is a bit toxic and requires some care in preparation and handling. I use a fogging developer for the second developer. No fixing needed.

I have a pdf prepared that gives all the details. PM me if interested.

Regards,

Don

Dusty hobbs · Apr 28, 2021

I’m New and I’m in need of some help. My girlfriend loves tin type photography. I’m wanting to buy her a new camera... I’ve bought the rockland kit and feel like I’m over my head with all this stuff. I asked someone else that does tin type photography and she pointed me to intrepid cameras...it’s all in the UK from what the website shows. Is there an American company that makes new cameras and has everything I would need to get her started?

DoctorMikeReddy · Jul 13, 2024

This is for DonF (I’m aware it is an old thread), because all of the image uploads are broken now, and I wondered if there was a web site where the examples you posted are still situated

abruzzi · Aug 14, 2024

Question for anyone who has used the Rockland kits--I bought the "parlor" kit, it comes with 8 4x5 plates and all the chems necessary. I've never used these, but I'm being visited by a niece and nephew next week. They're in their early teens are are very into crafts and art, so I thought they'd enjoy this. I received the kit today and the metal sheets are a tiny bit too big to slide into 4x5 film holders. I remember at some point coming across comments somewhere that the sheets would need to be trimmed.

I wanted to see if others have done this and how? Did you trim them with scissors? I have a roller-based paper cutter which would make straight cuts a little easierthan scisors, but I have not idea whether its capable of cutting thin metal sheets?

koraks · Aug 15, 2024

DoctorMikeReddy said:
This is for DonF (I’m aware it is an old thread), because all of the image uploads are broken now, and I wondered if there was a web site where the examples you posted are still situated

It helps of you include an @ before the person's name, in which case they receive an alert that they've been addressed in a thread. Like this: @DonF, could you please comment on this?

Also, which post(s) in particular would you want to see the pictures for? There are 170+ posts in this thread, a couple of dozen by @DonF in particular.

Rockland Colloid - Should I bother?

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency