Rise/shift the same as raising the camera or relying in lens geometry distortion?

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AgX

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I think the ambiguity of the word "distortion" is confusing the discussion here somewhat. Strictly speaking, changes in perspective due to changes in viewpoint are not "distortions."
As already indicated in this thread terminology varies between languages and even within languages.


Changes in viewpoint can induce distortion:

Whereas at changing viewpoints the distance of the camera to subject details varies, the distance of subject details along the optical axis to each other remain.
The ratio "subject-distance/subject-details-distance-to-eachother" then may leave that one yielding a pleasing perception. Think of the classic big-nose or facial defomation in portraiture.

Over here this is called perspective distortion.
(As I explained above, there is a second form of perspective distortion, based not on distance but angle at the optical axis.)
 

AgX

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Tilting the front standard will move the plane of focus, but leave the covered subject area the same.


(Enough coverage of he lens is necessitated, but the same applies on the front standard rise too.)
 

MattKing

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How does tilting the front up but also keeping the back parallel to the building compare to rise?

If you tilt the lens, but keep the back parallel to the building, the plane of focus will tilt and won't be parallel to the building.
 

xkaes

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Maybe a movement of the plane of focus is called "distortion" in Germany. Who knows, maybe just changing the depth of field qualifies as well.
 

AgX

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Maybe a movement of the plane of focus is called "distortion" in Germany. Who knows, maybe just changing the depth of field qualifies as well.

No, it is not. And I never said so.

Instead I had it about camera distance and about the angle of the optical axis to the subject.
 

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Camera rise and a lens of symmetrical construction isn't always enough to get straight lines in architecture photography. There is this story about a large format photographer going crazy when he tried to photograph a tall building in Giza, Egypt. He gave up and bought a postcard.
 
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Camera rise and a lens of symmetrical construction isn't always enough to get straight lines in architecture photography. There is this story about a large format photographer going crazy when he tried to photograph a tall buiding in Giza, Egypt. He gave up and bought a postcard.

Great joke. Except the last bit. Why would he be satisfied with a postcard?
 
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Helge

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It's not nearly as complicated as it may seem, there's just a lot going on.

Some fun facts:

The focal length of the lens is independent of the size of the image circle projected. Lens design makes the difference. For a given focal length you can have a lens that just barely covers the film format or one that is much, much larger. With view cameras, we like lenses with lots of coverage when we need to use movements. That doesn't change the size of the image (magnification) at all.

"Wide angle" is ambiguous. It can refer to a wide angle of view (think short focal length for the film format) or it can refer to the angle of projection. Lenses with wide angles of projection have larger image circles than ones with smaller angles of projection. I like to think in terms of "short," "normal" and "long" focal lengths for a given film format and leave "wide angle" alone unless I qualify it with "angle of view" or "angle of projection."

Distortion usually refers to defects in a lens' rendering. Barrel distortions makes a square look convexly rounded, pincushion distortion makes it look concavely rounded. Chromatic abberation means different colors don't focus at the same place, making a softer image, etc. Perspective is a different thing, and converging verticals falls under that category.

Perspective we can define as the relative sizes and positions of objects projected on a two-dimensional surface. Viewpoint determines perspective. Changing the angle of the film plane relative to the subject also changes perspective; the part of the film that is moved farther from the subject will have a smaller image than before it was moved.

Now, on to rise/shift: Think of the lens as a projector and the film as a screen. With a view camera we usually have a lens that projects an image that is significantly larger than the "screen." That means, we can move the projector (or the screen) around to use the portion of the image circle we want. Cameras that don't have movements don't need lenses with large image circles. View cameras, with all their movements, can take full advantage image circles that are much larger than the film format.

Let's look at the classic scenario. We have a tall building. If we tip the whole camera to point up to get all the building in, the verticals will converge because the film plane isn't parallel to the building façade. The part of the film that's farthest from the plane of the façade will have a smaller image than the part that's closest. (Note, this isn't "distortion," it's the perspective we should expect when the film plane isn't parallel to the subject plane).

If we want the verticals to be parallel, the solution is to keep the film (camera back) parallel to the façade, but then, we don't have the top of the building on the ground glass when the camera is in "zero" position. But, remember all that extra coverage the lens has? There's lots more image to use; the top of building is there, we just have to put it on the film. So we raise the lens (the projector) to put that part of the building on the ground glass (the screen).

Note that we do need a lens that is the right focal length and has a generous enough image circle to be able to do this from any given camera position. Still, you can do this with short, normal and long focal length lenses.

What's the difference between changing camera position by moving the camera up and using front rise with a lower camera position? In the first case, the optical center of the image will be centered on the film, since the lens axis intersects the film in the center. With front rise, we're moving the lens axis, so the optical center will appear lower in the final image. The looks are very different. The same happens with shift; if you shift lens or back, the optical center of the image (perspective wise) is no longer in the center of the film.

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Doremus
Lots of interesting answers here, I don't have time to comb through, and address every argument and detail in all of them, so the above will have to be a proxy for most of them.

Focal length is normally very closely tied to angle of view, but I'm fully aware that it's not as simple as it might have appeared I thought it was here (weasel words I know).
But I guess a lot of it has to do with being able to focus to infinity at given angle of view, even if the coverage happens to be there. And of course, that is linked to the film/plate format too.

The classic perspective lines would probably be a good mental tool/image in thinking about this.
With a tele the vanishing point is infinitely far off, and even if the image circle is larger (making it a slightly wider lens on a larger format), the effect of front shift would be much less dramatic than with a wider lens.
Right?

The question of whether to call geometric distortion away from the optical center actual distortion is perhaps, if not exactly a question of semantics or besides that point, then a question of agreeing on what semantic realm we are in:
Everyday language, related to how humans see, or very precise scientific language.

Since the eye is a scanner and not a camera, the distorted geometry that is also part of human vision is filtered out by the brain, the curvature of the retina, the smaller resolution of the periphery of vision and the non conscious turning of the eye towards the object of interest.
Not that it is very important, but notice how I anticipated this in my use of "" around distortion in my first use of it, talking about the phenomenon of optical geometric elongation and enlargement.

Can we agree that the moving of the optical center is using the same effects, that you would get towards the sides of a wide lens?
The doorway photo posted by Doremus is a good example here.
If the lens is marked at a given FL for a given format, it would be a wider lens with a larger format?
 
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Sirius Glass

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For 35mm cameras I found most of my needs were met with the 28mm PC lens. I have not bitten the bullet for MF and bought either the FlexBody or the ArcBody Hasselblads. If I make a choice the FlexBody would meet my needs and not require that I buy more lenses. I just lack the drive and the GAS to make the move at this time.
 

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Similar to Doremus, Stroebel phrases it pretty well in his book -- and it probably doesn't vary from edition to edition.

Front and rear rise & fall, and shifts (lateral movements) "alter the position of the image ... with respect to the film." That is, of course, limited by the size of the image circle.

Rear tilts and swings "control the shape of the subject" -- to either appear more "normal" or to "distort" it. I can't find where Stroebel uses the word "distort" in relation to camera movements, but rather "control the shape" -- probably intentionally.

And in landscape photography, I often "control the shape" of things like trees "falling" with rear tilts -- to make it look more natural/normal -- even though some might say I'm distorting it. I'd say I'm "correcting" it.
 
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MattKing

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If the lens is marked at a given FL for a given format, it would be a wider lens with a larger format?
"Wide" is of course short for a "wide field of view".
If the lens covers the larger format, it will image a wider field of view on a larger format sensor/piece of film.
Most lenses designed for 35mm or medium format are designed not to cover the larger format.
 
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I too think the word “distortion “ takes different meaning from different people. “This” talking past one another is not helping. Clearly there is a group of people who use the word “ distortion “ with a narrow view, and those who use THAT word more casually and with a bigger net from which they have cast. This is now a semantic issue. The OP states a false alternative / premise for “geometric distortion “??? I’m already confused? What is that?? Seriously, what is heige referring to?
 

Sirius Glass

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I too think the word “distortion “ takes different meaning from different people. “This” talking past one another is not helping. Clearly there is a group of people who use the word “ distortion “ with a narrow view, and those who use THAT word more casually and with a bigger net from which they have cast. This is now a semantic issue. The OP states a false alternative / premise for “geometric distortion “??? I’m already confused? What is that?? Seriously, what is heige referring to?

Per chance the meant word is perspective?
 
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If you tilt the lens, but keep the back parallel to the building, the plane of focus will tilt and won't be parallel to the building.

How about if you at the camera up but keep both the front and back parallel to the building? How does that compare with rise with the camera pointed straight at the building and the front and back parallel to it?
 

MattKing

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How about if you at the camera up but keep both the front and back parallel to the building? How does that compare with rise with the camera pointed straight at the building and the front and back parallel to it?

It gives the same result. Mechanically though, it may be either easier or more difficult, depending on the construction of the camera.
To do this, you need to have both back and front tilt available.
 
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It gives the same result. Mechanically though, it may be either easier or more difficult, depending on the construction of the camera.
To do this, you need to have both back and front tilt available.

Which gives more "rise"?
 

MattKing

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Which gives more "rise"?

In essence, the version with tilt involved too.
You can think of it as if the back is falling, and the front rising, and the "rise" is the sum of the two.
All dependent, of course, on the capabilities of the camera, and the coverage of the lens.
Plus things like how the camera mounts on a tripod.
 

AgX

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I too think the word “distortion “ takes different meaning from different people. “This” talking past one another is not helping. Clearly there is a group of people who use the word “ distortion “ with a narrow view, and those who use THAT word more casually and with a bigger net from which they have cast. This is now a semantic issue. The OP states a false alternative / premise for “geometric distortion “??? I’m already confused? What is that?? Seriously, what is heige referring to?

That is why I presented in detail my view on the term distortion to use as a base for discussion.
 

xkaes

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This conversation certainly has become distorted. But that's just my perspective.
 
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I too think the word “distortion “ takes different meaning from different people. “This” talking past one another is not helping. Clearly there is a group of people who use the word “ distortion “ with a narrow view, and those who use THAT word more casually and with a bigger net from which they have cast. This is now a semantic issue. The OP states a false alternative / premise for “geometric distortion “??? I’m already confused? What is that?? Seriously, what is heige referring to?
In case anyone is really in doubt. Simple shots from a wide iPhone camera.

The first one is equivalent to what you do with shift (I imagine) expect the bottom of the projection would be cut off by the film plane.
Shot straight on with a lot of "distortion" or elongated perspective at the top.
tempImagenIfkcW.jpg



This one has the top of the tower in the middle and is how a human would perceive the structure if free to look around. But of course the structure appears to be tilting away from you, something we are familiar with through vision, but that is again corrected by the fact that we are scanning with our eyes and head and not analysing stills.


A12FC032-755C-4F1A-A28E-7778D052463E_1_201_a.jpeg


The last one has the lens looking down to get sort of the opposite effect of the previous one, of the tower leaning towards you.

39F9BE8B-E6E0-46FC-8BA1-7F0B6F3C5861_1_201_a.jpeg


My original question is: Does shift as it is used on LF and other shift lenses, use this effect (for lack of better term) to correct converging lines?
Namely mostly the effect in the first photo where the "film plane" is parallel to the vertical structure? But the same basic principal goes for the all of them.
All 135 shift lenses are some kind of wide. That would support what I'm thinking?
So yes, it is in essence perspective I'm talking about. Namely near vanishing point perspective. Or wide perspective if you will.
 
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xkaes

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With this type of shot (whether or not the camera is pointed straight ahead or tilted upward), if you tilt the rear of the camera -- forward or backward -- you can increase (or decrease) the perceived amount of tilt in the tower. As a result, you can set it to where it appears untilted -- if that is what you want. As Stroebel labels it, you are controlling the shape of the subject. Others might say you are controlling the perspective or the distortion.

Shifting a lens is completely different, and will not change any of this. Shifting/Rise&Fall only moves the lens around the image circle. It has no affect on the shape/perspective/distortion of the subject.
 
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brbo

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90mm T/S for 135 format are not wide. Shift in LF is not used only with wide lenses and yet it "just works".
 
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