Reversal RA-4 experiment thread.

Photo Engineer

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The reversal process being discussed here seems to be a bit less subject to temperature variations. At least, that is the way it seems to me. As for Fuji, I have read many reports that CA paper does not do well in this reversal process. However, since I first published this process, there have been two or three different versions of CA paper, and as many versions of Endura, so who knows what is best now? Not me. I have been busy making emulsions and mixing up new developers and fixers.

PE
 

RPC

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I have not used Fuji for RA-4 reversal but for RA-4 in general I have gotten results almost identical to Endura except the Endura had better shadow detail, at least when they were both used with Kodak RA-RT Replenisher. I see no difference in results when either are used between 68-75 degrees. I have tried RA-4 reversal with Endura and gotten results similar to what others have shown and described but due to the difficulty in conquering the problems of high contrast, crossover, and mottling, I think I will turn my efforts to trying internegatives unless someone can significantly improve the process. I would like to experiment further but don't have the time. Good luck to those who do.

BTW, to those use it, I have found I can get more parallel curves form Kodak RA-RT Replenisher by adding about 1-2 ml of Glacial Acetic Acid per liter of developer. YMMV.
 
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Roger Cole

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Digression because he mentioned it WRT regular RA4. At least, I took HRST's comment about developing prints over a period of two years to refer to regular neg-pos RA4.
 
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hrst

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For normal RA-4, I always develop for about 2:15. My temperature doesn't drift so much. I have just missed printing in hot summer days. If I did it at, say, 30 deg C (there is no decent air conditioning in the darkroom I use), maybe I would shorten the time to, say, 1:30 to 1:45 or something like that. But, I haven't seen ANY difference in my range of 21...26 deg C with constant development time.

I have tried varying development time between 2:00 and 3:00; the difference is only in contrast and density, not color balance, and is VERY MINOR.

I cannot see any difference in how Supra Endura and Crystal Archive behave in normal RA-4 process. They produce almost identical results at 22 deg C. Fuji CA is a very little bit more contrasty and has a little bit more saturated look, and filtration differs a few units from Kodak -- similar to how much there can be variation even between the batches of the very same paper! IIRC, there was just one APUG user reporting difficulties with Fuji CA in room temperature; and this one experience gets quoted over and over again. Whatever the reason for the problems was, we need more data points.

Color development step in reversal RA-4 is practically similar to one in normal RA-4, so this information goes for both processes. I usually think about them as one process, with reversal version just having one extra step at the beginning!

However, the way the First Developer acts is more dependent on the paper; as I have stated before, Fuji CA needs and can tolerate higher levels of both thiosulphate and bromide in the First Developer.
 

Roger Cole

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Very interesting, thanks. I'm almost talked in to getting back into (regular neg-pos) RA4 - now if you could just tell me how to keep getting my paycheck and spend half as much time at work so I have time to print!

Seriously and back on topic, this reversal looks simple enough, with essentially a black and white first developer and a light for reversal exposure, that if you already have the RA4 stuff it's simple to experiment with reversal as well.

I went through several gallons of chemistry and several hundred sheet boxes of type 2203 paper back in the day - Cibachrome was cheaper than it was later but still twice the price or more as 2203, so I used what I could afford. I miss that stuff. (Ok, I miss affordable Ciba more...)
 

RPC

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By all means, Roger, get back into RA-4. Color negative printing is easier now than ever before. It is surprising how many stay away from it because they think it is difficult.
 

Roger Cole

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I've done it, but first with drums (PITA cleaning and drying, IMHO) and later with trays using the Tetanal RA4AT that gave yellow whites/highlights - that's been hashed out here before. I'm not afraid of it, other than wanting to either not need temperature control or have a way to do it that doesn't involve drums and my Jobo - love it for film. I never even had a colorhead and still don't - CP filters in the filter drawer worked fine, and I daresay they still will.
 
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hrst

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Roger Cole said:
Tetanal RA4AT that gave yellow whites/highlights - that's been hashed out here before.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's was probably not a developer nor temperature issue; I got those yellow highlights / paper borders too, and it was purely because of the faulty blix that stained the paper. Extending the blix time, the stain became worse, and changing the blix to the Kodak version solved the problem, even with Tetenal developer.
 

Photo Engineer

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If that is the case, there was insufficient auxiliary sequestrant in the blix. It can sometimes be fixed by soaking the print in Dequest 2010 or Dequest 2000 solution at about 10%.

PE
 

Sergejs Orlovskis

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Here of that I always use fresh developer and stop bath in processor. I always have brilliant white highlights and white borders. Yellow fog occurs when colour paper was kept in a warm and humid place, or in the emulsion after final rinse become components of the BLIX. Also I did some experiments with slide printing on RA4 and first think I understand is that in this process acid stop bath is not necessary. It is really hard to completely fog paper after acid stop bath. 3 min rinse on 0.5 l fresh water in processor is enough. Second think was about colour developer. I don't know anything about Tetenal RA4 chemicals but life of modern Minilab RA4 Fuji chemicals is not so big actually if You develop something in it.
 

Photo Engineer

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When you light fog any color reversal material, you should expose the front and the back to get proper re-exposure.

PE
 

Sergejs Orlovskis

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Thanks for idea about front and back re-ex I try it tomorrow. Here is my today best result at now I don't like black borders it's dark but not black. Red-brown but not black, and I don't know how to get black bordersI try re-ex 10 min and 20 min and don't see any differences. I think re-ex need to do until paper become pink after that moment re-ex doesn't work.
 
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hrst

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Have you tried adding hypo (sodium thiosulphate) to the First Developer? Kodak Supra Endura can benefit a little bit from a tiny amount (0.10 g/l or so), but I found that Fuji Crystal Archive really needs it to get proper blacks (I got greenish-gray without it), and at much higher concentration than Kodak Supra Endura. I don't remember the exact numbers but you can try at 1 g/l. It may be easiest to prepare a 10% solution first if you don't have an accurate scale. These numbers are for pentahydrate version.

Adding that hypo might fix both blacks and cyan forehead! If not, add more. If you add too much, you will be making the image too contrasty and kind of posterized.

If hypo doesn't fix it, then it's probably the balance of bromide -- too low, you won't have good blacks (I tested with ZERO bromide and got bright red or yellow depending on hypo), too high, you won't get good whites. Of course, if you have both problems at the same time, then you have to find another solution than just adjusting bromide.

One fun thing in this process is that nothing goes as expected. When I say how hypo and bromide levels affect images, I mean how they affected the images when I tested them. It is very well possible that we are using different versions of the paper, etc. Kodak and Fuji naturally only test their product in normal RA-4 process and they can make radical modifications in grain structure etc. which can affect the reversal process without affecting the normal process.

Don't waste your precious time re-exposing for 10 or 20 minutes. Using a 100W bulb or comparable from a distance of 20-30 cm or so, something around 3-4 minutes is DEFINITELY enough. If I remember correctly, I tested 30 seconds with a 60W bulb and found out it was not enough but it came close, and 1 minute has always been enough for me for both Kodak and Fuji paper.
 
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Sergejs Orlovskis

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I add 0.2 gr of sodium thiosulphate. today I try to add more. I fog paper until it become pink and I don't use acid stop bath. It is really hard to fog paper after stop bath, it works like fixer.
 

darkroom_rookie

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What about making a (slighly contrastier?) unsharp mask and selectively toning its dense portions? That would effectively result in a mask which could warm the highlights, in addition to lowering contrast. This is just an idea, seeing how my latest landscape reversal print turned out - almost good! I used highly diluted Ilford PQ paper dev and a pinch of Rodinal and the highlights were closer to neutral than cyan. But on the original transparency they were ochre-reddish (late afternoon sun-bathed stone houses).
 

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old thread but you need to wash dont use stop
 

Oxleyroad

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Hi Athiril,

I have used old Agfa and newer Fuji colour papers (can't remember the actual paper details) without any issues. The B&W developer I use is Dektol, I use a stopbath (1.5 lt water and a splash of vinegar), and Tetenal RA4 chems used cool as I have a fixed speed Durst RCP20. My times are B&W developer 3mins, Stop 30 secs, lights on for 60 secs, the paper staying in the stop while lights on, plunge into fresh water then into the Durst. It has 2.5 min to travel through each of the RA4 chemsitry.

I will have to confirm if I dilute the Dektol or not. I found if I did not stop the development of the B&W developer the image would process white (I could see the image turning black in a water bath with the lights on) the vinegar I found to be just right for my environment. My agfa paper gives me a straw coloured base due to the age of it and thermal stressing it has seen. My lights are two 75W globes on the ceiling about 1.5m away from the developing bench. I try not to cast a shadow on the print while expose to light.
 

shutterbug101

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What do you use for stop bath? Do you use normal black and white paper stop or just water?
 

Photo Engineer

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Using a water stop with any process is not really recommended. This is especially true of fast developing papers which can get streaks by using water to stop development.

I have used 1% and 2% acetic acid and also plain old indicator stop bath. All work.

PE
 

Dr Croubie

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Wow, you can reverse RA-4? Maybe there *is* hope for all my velvia after all, that doens't involve HDPP or V750/R3000.
Nothing much to add, I just wanted to type something to remind me to remember this thread. One day when I've got time I'd like to try this...
 

Oxleyroad

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shutterbug101 said:
What do you use for stop bath? Do you use normal black and white paper stop or just water?
Click to expand...

Stop bath = 1.5 litres of water and a splash of white vinegar (weak acetic acid). Do not use purchased B&W paper/film stop baths. Water is filtered rain water.
 

WayneStevenson

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"Wow, you can reverse RA-4?"

It's fun to play around with. But there tends to be a mottling that is hard to overlook. I have a few ideas I want to try after doing some B&W paper reversal. Ended up getting an identical (appearing) mottling with the B&W paper that I was able to fix. May be related so when I have some time......

And to make matters worse, I am no chemist.
 

himself

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I realise this thread has been dead for while, but I've been trying this process after reading through the thread a couple times.

Having had no luck so far, I'm hoping to get some advice...

At the moment, I'm ending up with a blank white page after the blix. My process (using Fuji Chrystal Archive) is as follows:

I'm developing with Ilford Multigrade paper dev first up 2 minutes
then stop and wash
re-expose for 2-5 minuets in daylight (bright sunshine)
final dev in Kodak RA4 chemicals (at 20 degrees) 2 minutes
and blix with Kodak blix

the first development is working ok, with a normal looking black and white neg.
I'm not sure if I'm re-exposing for long enough - how do you know if you've re-exposed for long enough?

But then the colour dev doesn't seem to do anything and as I said, when blixed everything disappears.

I've tested the colour chemicals and with a normal process everything develops as expected.

What could be going wrong?
 
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