Reusing XTOL

[1kgcoffee]

Whipped up a batch of 5L and developed my first roll of film today (stock solution, 6x6). VERY happy with the results looking under the loupe, it has a 3d pop it.

I'm a little confused though... trying to understand how long I can reuse the solution for? I made two containers, one 3L which will be the working solution, and another 2L which will be the replenisher. After using 1/2L today, I poured it back into the working solution.

Question time:
1. How much and how often do I have to replenish.. assuming 1 roll of 120 or 2 rolls of 135 per use?
2. How long is the solution good for.
3. If I want to try diluted 1:1 or 1:2, do I throw out that solution or can it also be reused with the addition of replenisher and how much?
4. Going to try d76 soon as well. Do the same rules apply?

-thanks in advance,
1kgcoffee

 

[Craig]

Everything you should need to know is there in the tech publication: http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/j109.pdf

 

[MattKing]

For calculations of developer capacity (any developer) 1 roll of 120 is equivalent to 1 roll of 135-36 is equivalent to 1 8x10 sheet is equivalent to 4 sheets of 4x5.
For X-Tol in particular:
1) 3 litres is a really large volume for the working solution, unless you are doing something like developing 8x10 sheets in big tanks. One would normally use a working solution container that is slightly larger than the developing tanks one is using. It should still work, but you might need to put a lot of film through it to counteract potential problems with oxidation;
2) Kodak recommends that for each roll of film you develop, you add 70 ml of replenisher from the replenishment stock to the working solution bottle while the film is being developed. After completing the development you should pour the recently used developer back into the working solution bottle. It will over-flow if you pour it all - discard the excess.
3) as XTol is its own replenisher, it is difficult to over-replenish. For that reason, some people use more than 70 ml per roll - 80ml or up to 100 ml. Of course, if you use more you decrease the total maximum number of rolls that a 5 litre package will develop. You might decide to increase the amount of replenisher if, over time, you notice that the developer activity is slowly decreasing;
4) at 70 ml per roll, you should be able to develop 70 rolls of film from 5 litres of replenisher. Kodak suggests a working life of six months for mixed up replenisher. So if you develop a roll every two or three days, you should be able to use up the replenisher in that six months. Then you mix up a new 5 litres;
5) with respect to the working solution, if you are using and replenishing it regularly, it can theoretically last forever. The key is regular replenishment - remembering of course that replenishment involves both discard of a portion of the old and addition of the fresh and new. My practice with replenishment is for any week that I don't develop film I discard one film's worth and add one film's worth, as if I had developed a film;
6) if you replenish, you don't dilute. If you dilute, you don't mix the diluted developer into a replenishment regime. In your case, with all that excess working solution, you could consider reducing its volume by replenishing the whole and than separating of an amount - say 1.5 litres (leaving 1.5 litres as working solution) and then using that separated off 1.5 litres for one shot development with 1+1 developer. The separated off developer will be slightly different than fresh developer, due to the single roll you developed in it already, but the difference won't be great;
7) D-76 isn't set up to use replenishment in the same way. It requires a separate chemical called D-76 replenisher, which is no longer being made. Ilford makes a close equivalent - ID-11 - which is packaged in two parts. Because of that difference in packaging it is possible to customize the mixing and prepare a replenisher instead. Ilford has instructions for that on their website;
8) some people are (overly) concerned about not being able to use up 5 litres of X-Tol in six months. Considering how inexpensive it is, and considering how relatively benign ascorbic acid developers are, I'm not sure why discarding a small amount of developer once in a while is so bad. Some people have had success storing X-Tol safely for more than six months, but you need to be willing to do clip tests, because X-Tol doesn't change appearence when it dies.

One of the really big advantages of using replenished X-Tol is that it permits you to always develop at room temperature. Just measure the developer temperature, and adjust developing time accordingly.

 

[Ian Grant]

Matt, I'd recommend a minimum of 2 litres but 2.5 litres is better, of working solution, This helps even out slight variances in exhaustion rates when replenishing and gives more consistent results. I definitely wouldn't go below 2 litres, that's from getting over 40 years experience using replenished developers, commercially in deep tanks and more importantly in Winchester (glass) or HD plastic bottles in my darkroom at home.

You've summed up the advantages, it's the easiest of all developers to use replenished it keeps around a year replenished, manufacturers have to err on the cautious side, I recommend keeping a notebook to track development, note if negs begin to look a bit thin or dense.

Once seasoned/ripened after 3 or 4 films you find the results improve and you get finer grain, better sharpness, this is typical with all replenished developers. It's so economic, I've just converted someone on the LFP Forum to using Xtol replenished and he can't believe how easy it is, and great for processing a single or couple of sheets of 5x4 film, as there's no wastage.

Ian

 

[John Wiegerink]

I finally settled on Xtol replenished for at least 90% of everything I develop. It's a little harder to get the system setup over one-shot, but once you do you'll say to yourself, my this is fantastic. Very, very easy to use, great results and cheap. What more could you want? I keep my working Xtol in a gallon glass Boston brown jug and the replenisher in a collapsible wine bladder. I just wish I would have tried this years ago.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Whipped up a batch of 5L and developed my first roll of film today (stock solution, 6x6). VERY happy with the results looking under the loupe, it has a 3d pop it.

I'm a little confused though... trying to understand how long I can reuse the solution for? I made two containers, one 3L which will be the working solution, and another 2L which will be the replenisher. After using 1/2L today, I poured it back into the working solution.

Question time:
1. How much and how often do I have to replenish.. assuming 1 roll of 120 or 2 rolls of 135 per use?
2. How long is the solution good for.
3. If I want to try diluted 1:1 or 1:2, do I throw out that solution or can it also be reused with the addition of replenisher and how much?
4. Going to try d76 soon as well. Do the same rules apply?

-thanks in advance,
1kgcoffee

Unless you somehow contaminate the working solution, you can continue to replenish the working solution forever. I did just that for about five years, and the developer just continues to perform as expected.

 

[John Wiegerink]

1kgcoffee,
After re-reading your post it became clear that you would also like to try different dilutions with your Xtol replenished developer. Well, the straight answer to that is "NO you can't do that"! DO NOT DILUTE YOU WORKING STOCK XTOL! Your replenished Xtol is already like 1+1 in nature. If you want to try 1+2 or 1+3 just use the Xtol that you have for topping-off/replenishing you stock/working Xtol since all it is is straight stock Xtol. Mix it at 1+2 or 1+3 and discard down the drain when done. Just don't screw with your working stock solution.

 

[freecitizen]

I posted the following in another thread .... It may be helpful here ....

I have been using replenished xtol for a couple of years now. When I went up to 4x5 and 5x7 I found that the volumes of developer I needed were so large ( tray or tank/inversion ) that I could not reasonably use a developer as one-shot. Inversion in my Jobo 4x5 tank needed about 1.3 litres each time.

So I went to replenished, and can simply pour as much developer as I need into the tank and replenish using stock xtol.

I make up 5 litres of Xtol and store it in multiple glass 200ml glass bottles ( discards from the chemist ) with airtight screw-on caps ( each one filled to the brim, no air ). That way my stock Xtol stays fresh without degradation from air contact. The replenished developer is kept in a huge swing-top Grolsch beer bottle which is always filled to the top. I pour whatever is needed into the tank and develop. While agitating, I add 75 mls fresh stock xtol per roll to the bottle and when development is complete I pour the developer from the dev tank back into the big bottle until it is full, then discard any leftover developer down the sink.

The replenished brew has become very stable. I decided to get serious and dialed in my personal film speed ( for Zone I ) and development time to get a proper print value for Zone VIII as per Fred Picker's method outlined in his Zone VI Workshop book. I am getting very consistent negatives with FP4 and HP5, all formats. They generally print well at about grade 2 ( diffusion enlarger ). Sharpness and tonality are excellent. I do proper proofs at grade 2, and include a Stouffer stepwedge on each proof sheet, to see things stay on track.

Going through this process has taught me a great deal and given me confidence in the materials I use. I find I am concentrating more on making pictures, rather than having doubts of the technical variety, at the moment and I am enjoying that.

 

[MattKing]

Matt, I'd recommend a minimum of 2 litres but 2.5 litres is better, of working solution, This helps even out slight variances in exhaustion rates when replenishing and gives more consistent results. I definitely wouldn't go below 2 litres, that's from getting over 40 years experience using replenished developers, commercially in deep tanks and more importantly in Winchester (glass) or HD plastic bottles in my darkroom at home.

Ian:
Interesting.
I'm currently using HC-110 dilution E replenished, because I like it almost as much as XTol and still have the replenisher in decent quantities. Because of space constraints, my working solution is in a US half gallon/1.9 litre container, which works practically with my developing tanks, which max out at 1 litre each. I've recently moved up to that 1/2 gallon container from a 1.25 litre container (because I found a 1/2 gallon container that would fit in the limited space I have available for it).
I'm sure that you are right about maximizing consistency. It may be the case that the circumstances would differ between replenishable developers, not least because of the differences between replenishment amounts (I'm currently using 15 ml per roll).
More important though for the OP, I wonder whether a smaller working solution quantity may be better for anyone who has more inconsistent usage than you do.

 

[Ian Grant]

Matt, you have to realise that Xtol replenishment is effectively Bleed replenishment, so you are adding ore fresh developer than was actually exhausted. Top up replenishment only became possible with PQ developer which can tolerate high halide levels, the only commercial developer was Ilford Autophen. It's not possible with Xtol as it would need a dedicated Xtol replenisher.

As to inconsistent use that would be my use of Xtol which was my second developer, Rodinal then much later Pyrocat HD being my primary developer for personal work. So my Xtol might not get used for a few weeks but that was never a problem, that extended to months when I moved abroad.

Ian

 

[MattKing]

As to inconsistent use that would be my use of Xtol which was my second developer, Rodinal then much later Pyrocat HD being my primary developer for personal work. So my Xtol might not get used for a few weeks but that was never a problem, that extended to months when I moved abroad.

Just out of curiosity Ian:
Do you have experience (direct or vicarious) with those who use smaller working solutions of X-Tol?
I ask, because I recommend X-Tol to a lot of people who are also space constrained, and I'd like to know how important it might be to increase my "working solution" volume suggestion.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I can add my experience with replenished systems. Some years ago I tried replenishing one liter of Microphen. The results were not very good. With such a small volume each addition caused a noticeable variability in the activity of the developer. Replenishment works best with larger volumes ie one gallon or more. Typically photofinishers used deep tanks which held 3.5 gallons. Kodak sold a 3.5 gallon size of several of its developers. For such volumes replenishment worked well. Even so the tank volume was periodically reduced by half and fresh developer added to help maintain consistency.

 

[Ian Grant]

Matt, I've used smaller volumes with other replenished developers and it's not ideal a touch more variable. With Xtol no, I have a lot of 2.5 litre high density plastc bottle, we used to get acids for the lab I ran (precious metal testing) in glass Winchesters but they switched to HD plastic, ideal for photo chemicals once purged unbreakable about 3/16" wall thickness, unbreakable as well.

Gerald had replied as I write (I'm cooking a big meal at the same time) and has said what I was going to. My 2.5 litre bottles are user friendly and take up little space, they take up less space than similar sized glass Winchester bottle.

Ian

 

[1kgcoffee]

Thanks to all for the responses.

Getting the hang of this now. Just got done with the second roll. Very pleased with xtol.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Thanks to all for the responses.

Getting the hang of this now. Just got done with the second roll. Very pleased with xtol.

If your experience parallels mine then you'll find the more you use Xtol-R the more you will appreciate it.

 

[1kgcoffee]

Still a little confused if I am doing this right... want to clarify before going further.

The patterson tank holds 500ml for one roll of 120. So after developing one roll stock, I pour 70-100ml of the reserve stock container of xtol into the working solution container, then about 400-430ml of what was used to develop that roll back into the working. Then the working solution will become seasoned and keep good for a long time stored properly?

And if I choose to use 1:n dilution, use up that reserve container before mixing a new one to keep seeding the working solution and run my dilutions off of?


One other question: how vulnerable to oxidation is it? If the reserve container starts to have a lot of empty air space will this kill it? Keep in mind this is mixed from distilled water, no contaminants.

 

[Ian Grant]

Still a little confused if I am doing this right... want to clarify before going further.

The patterson tank holds 500ml for one roll of 120. So after developing one roll stock, I pour 70-100ml of the reserve stock container of xtol into the working solution container, then about 400-430ml of what was used to develop that roll back into the working. Then the working solution will become seasoned and keep good for a long time stored properly?

Yes but use 70ml per 35mm 36ex or 120 film 100ml is far too much, and you really need to use a larger volume of working stock solution to be consistent,

And if I choose to use 1:n dilution, use up that reserve container before mixing a new one to keep seeding the working solution and run my dilutions off of?

Yes but that's just wasteful when you'll get better results with the replenished Xtol.

One other question: how vulnerable to oxidation is it? If the reserve container starts to have a lot of empty air space will this kill it? Keep in mind this is mixed from distilled water, no contaminants.

My experience is it keeps well, but you can split it into smaller bottles and it'll keep longer, a year fairly easily.

Ian

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Still a little confused if I am doing this right... want to clarify before going further.

The patterson tank holds 500ml for one roll of 120. So after developing one roll stock, I pour 70-100ml of the reserve stock container of xtol into the working solution container, then about 400-430ml of what was used to develop that roll back into the working. Then the working solution will become seasoned and keep good for a long time stored properly?

And if I choose to use 1:n dilution, use up that reserve container before mixing a new one to keep seeding the working solution and run my dilutions off of?


One other question: how vulnerable to oxidation is it? If the reserve container starts to have a lot of empty air space will this kill it? Keep in mind this is mixed from distilled water, no contaminants.

I don't know if this is clear or not, based on what you write, so I'll reiterate: do not use diluted Xtol in any way for a replenished system. Always stock developer.

About the only time you can use a 1:1 dilution is when you first start out, the very first time you develop film. Because the replenished developer has roughly the same level of activity as replenished seasoned stock, you can use 1:1 for the first roll(s) in the first tank full. Then replenish using stock thereafter, in perpetuity.

Like Ian says, 100ml may be too much. I found a nice balance with 80ml / 36exp roll (equivalent). I also agree that at least 2 liter working solution is best, preferably more. It helps even out slight inconsistencies in replenishing rate and other variations.

The stock solution keeps well for six months in most containers. If you keep it longer than that, it makes good sense to keep a good eye on developer activity. If you notice you're not getting the contrast you usually get, it could be that the stock replenishing solution is starting to go off. It could also be that you are not using enough concentrate stock to replenish, so adjust as needed.
It takes a little while to get a good feel for it, but once you're in the rhythm it's a truly excellent and highly economic system.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Still a little confused if I am doing this right... want to clarify before going further.

The patterson tank holds 500ml for one roll of 120. So after developing one roll stock, I pour 70-100ml of the reserve stock container of xtol into the working solution container, then about 400-430ml of what was used to develop that roll back into the working. Then the working solution will become seasoned and keep good for a long time stored properly?

And if I choose to use 1:n dilution, use up that reserve container before mixing a new one to keep seeding the working solution and run my dilutions off of?


One other question: how vulnerable to oxidation is it? If the reserve container starts to have a lot of empty air space will this kill it? Keep in mind this is mixed from distilled water, no contaminants.

You pretty much have got the hang of it. Your reserve stock, as you call it, is nothing more then good old Xtol stock. So you can use it as just that. If you want to use Xtol 1+3 for a certain film and not the replenished, you'd just take 1oz. reserve stock and add 3oz of H2O(just an example), when done you dump it down the drain like any one-shot developer. And "YES" to your last question about keeping air out of your reserve stock. I use a wine bladder so no oxygen gets to my stock solution and I have no problems. Some folks use marbles to take up air space in glass bottles and some folks use "heavier than air" spray gases over the top of their storage bottles. That's just a few ways to prevent premature oxidation.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

With replenished systems you will see the term "top off" or "topping off." What it means for Xtol is that before returning the used developer to its container add the appropriate amount of fresh Xtol. Then fill the container the rest of the way with the used developer. Any bit left over is discarded. Couldn't be any easier than that.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Use 70ml per roll as replenishment and forget about diluting the developer because you will be getting the best results by replenishing.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Use 70ml per roll as replenishment and forget about diluting the developer because you will be getting the best results by replenishing.

I agree with that, but if for some unknown reason he wishes to he can by just using his stock Xtol and discarding it. I haven't used any dilutions of Xtol since I started using it replenished.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Not only is using and dumping stock solution wasteful, but also the point is that replenished XTOL has better sharpness, tonality, ...

 

[Ian Grant]

With replenished systems you will see the term "top off" or "topping off." What it means for Xtol is that before returning the used developer to its container add the appropriate amount of fresh Xtol. Then fill the container the rest of the way with the used developer. Any bit left over is discarded. Couldn't be any easier than that.

The terms top up replenishment and bleed replenishment are more common. Top up just adds what was lost to maintain the level while bleed means discard some developer and then add replenisher.

Ilford's photo-finishing developer Autophen (a PQ version of ID-11/D76) had two different replenishers depending on which system was used. Xtol uses bleed replenishment there's no need to add more than 70ml repleinsher (fresh Xtol) per 80sq in of film processed 1 35mm 36ex or 120 film, 4x 5x4 or 1 sheet 10x8 as the 70ml is a rather conservative figure you could add less but it gives a safety margin for consistency.

Ian

 

[darkroommike]

I have run sink lines, roller transports, and other such with replenishment and my conclusion is...don't try this at home. It's not that you can't do it, but you need to modify your stock solution with either a starter or by running a certain amount of film through the stock developer before the working solution stabilizes. Unless you process a lot of film or use a large quantity of developer you will never have enough "chemical inertia" to overcome any small errors from roll to roll. It also required a densitometer and process control strips to have any real hope of consistent results. (And I know there will be tons on anecdotal rebuttal to that last statement along the lines of we don't need no stinkin' control strips or charts, stating that it's always worked for me without any of that bother.) I eventually decided that running film processing at home it is much more economical to run my developer(s) one shot. (This factors in my time expenditures.)