Reusing XTOL

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lantau

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@bernard_L The only reason to replenish Xtol is to save money. At 12 rolls per year you're clearly not going to save much by replenishing. However, replenishing comes at a cost: your results will never be as consistent as one-shot, and there's a slight speed loss.

For tiny volumes that is true. But if you do more than that, then running replenishment regime for your primary b/w developer, your fixer, your C41 chems (dev, bleach, fixer), your printing chems (dev, buffered stop, fixer) and your RA4 chems (dev, buffered stop, blix) is saving money.

More important than that: it is reducing the volume of discharge. I collect my used chemicals and have them disposed properly by the free service provided by my county. But there are limits on how much you can bring.

Finally, once the process is working for you then replenishment is, IMHO, the most convenient way of running things.
 

Donald Qualls

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Saves me the time for running after yet another silver bullet.

One of the greatest secrets of B&W photography: all the bullets are silver.

Virtually any combination of film and developer can be the "silver bullet" if it fits your techniques and vision. Some people get their best results developing in beer; others need a specific modified version of a homebrew developer that probably has three other users (including the inventor), and then only with a specific film (inducing terror that the manufacturer will change the film characteristics for economic or regulatory reasons).

A lot of my favorite images were shot in simple cameras, on the cheapest film I could find, and developed with a developer made from headache pills and drain opener or instant coffee and laundry soda -- but some of them were done in high quality adjustable cameras, on premium films (like T-Max 400 or XP2 Super or Portra 400NC) developed in commercial developers like HC-110 or Flexicolor.

The "silver bullet" effect is a result of the film, development, and scan/print matching up perfectly with the subject matter and photographer's vision. Sometimes this comes from assuming obsessive control of every controllable factor in the process, and sometimes it comes from adjusting your vision to fit what you have in terms of camera, film, and process.
 

aparat

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One of the greatest secrets of B&W photography: all the bullets are silver.

Virtually any combination of film and developer can be the "silver bullet" if it fits your techniques and vision. Some people get their best results developing in beer; others need a specific modified version of a homebrew developer that probably has three other users (including the inventor), and then only with a specific film (inducing terror that the manufacturer will change the film characteristics for economic or regulatory reasons).

A lot of my favorite images were shot in simple cameras, on the cheapest film I could find, and developed with a developer made from headache pills and drain opener -- but some of them were done in high quality adjustable cameras, on premium films (like T-Max 400 or XP2 Super or Portra 400NC) developed in commercial developers like HC-110 or Flexicolor.

The "silver bullet" effect is a result of the film, development, and scan/print matching up perfectly with the subject matter and photographer's vision. Sometimes this comes from assuming obsessive control of every controllable factor in the process, and sometimes it comes from adjusting your vision to fit what you have in terms of camera, film, and process.

I agree with that. I will also add that some of my favorite prints were shot with a Smena 8M (my first camera), developed with little regard for temperature and agitation consistency, and printed on some cheap paper i could find at the time with an enlarger that was never aligned and a cheap enlarging lens that came with it (a Meopta Opemus with an Anaret lens).
 

bernard_L

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One of the greatest secrets of B&W photography: all the bullets are silver.
(...)
I agree, but only partly, assuming your meaning of "silver bullet". My meaning of "silver bullet" is the illusion that around the corner, that developer touted by a sect will magically improve your photography.
Won't elaborate, as this is probably (hem!) off-topic. Except it's all about silver.😉
 

Cholentpot

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Reviving a dead thread.

I have 20-30 rolls of b&w sitting in my fridge waiting for development. I also have a nice very large 5 reel tank, I think it can hold 3 120 rolls at a time. And I also have a lot of unmixed Xtol which I've never used before.

Mixing up a batch of stock seems to be the best plan. I've only ever done one shot development before though. Generally with a dilution.

Can someone very slowly and deliberately walk me through the steps to make a stock solution and replenish? My chemistry comes in the 5L type bags.
 

MattKing

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1) Mix up the five litres of stock;
2) You will need a container for storing the working solution. Ideally it should be at least twice the volume of your largest developing tank. Fill from your five litres of stock;
3) the rest of your mixed up XTol will go into one or more containers - that will be your replenisher.

Next you need to "season" your working solution - change it from fresh developer to developer suitable for replenishing as a steady state solution. To do that, it would be best to have at least 6 rolls of the same film. Personally, I would develop the first 6 rolls one at a time, so that I might season the working solution and compensate for that seasoning gradually, but you might choose to do three at a time.

Look up the recommended times for your film with stock developer, and with developer diluted 1 + 1. Once seasoned, the replenished X-Tol times will be close to those 1 + 1 times.

Your first roll(s) will be developed at the stock developer times. After you have run six rolls through the same developer, your times for subsequent rolls will start at or near the 1 + 1 times. Between those situations, you will incrementally increase the times. In my preferred one at a time scenario, I would divide the difference between the stock times and the 1 + 1 times by five, and that would be the time increment I would use for each of rolls 2 through 6.

Six rolls may be a bit too little, or (less likely) a bit too much - depends on how much working solution you are working with - but it should be close. My sense from reading your posts over the years is that you aren't the "control strips and densitometer" sort of precision photographer, so starting out with XTol that is a bit on the active side may not worry you.

Once your developer is seasoned, you should make a point of using the same size tank every time, and you should fill it every time. That will help maintain consistency. As you will be replenishing, you won't waste developer.

Each time you develop with replenished developer, you will:
a) load the tank with the films to be developed;
b) fill the tank with the working solution developer from the working solution developer bottle;
c) while the film is developing, add to the currently partly empty working solution developer bottle one shot of fresh developer - the replenisher - for each roll being developed;
d) when the development stage is finished, you will be pouring back the just used developer into the working solution bottle. Because of the added replenisher, there will be excess - that is to be discarded;

As for how much replenisher to add (and how much used developer will end up being excess), the Kodak recommendations for a starting point are/were 70 ml per roll of 135-36 or 120 film. You may prefer to use a bit more to start - say 80 ml/roll.

After the first five litre batch, 70 ml per roll of replenisher means that you can develop about 70 rolls of film per batch.
Over time, you will be able to see if the activity is tending toward too much (best to reduce slightly the amount of replenisher/roll), or too little (best to increase slightly the amount of replenisher/roll). Any change tends to be gradual and relatively easy to see.

One tip - I find it useful to pour the just used developer from the developing tank into an intermediate container first, and then while the film is in the stop bath, from the intermediate container into the working developer bottle. That makes it easier to gauge just how much to pour back into the working developer bottle, before discarding the rest. One of the big two litre plastic Paterson measuring graduates works perfectly for this.
Hope this helps.
 

Cholentpot

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1) Mix up the five litres of stock;
2) You will need a container for storing the working solution. Ideally it should be at least twice the volume of your largest developing tank. Fill from your five litres of stock;
3) the rest of your mixed up XTol will go into one or more containers - that will be your replenisher.

Next you need to "season" your working solution - change it from fresh developer to developer suitable for replenishing as a steady state solution. To do that, it would be best to have at least 6 rolls of the same film. Personally, I would develop the first 6 rolls one at a time, so that I might season the working solution and compensate for that seasoning gradually, but you might choose to do three at a time.

Look up the recommended times for your film with stock developer, and with developer diluted 1 + 1. Once seasoned, the replenished X-Tol times will be close to those 1 + 1 times.

Your first roll(s) will be developed at the stock developer times. After you have run six rolls through the same developer, your times for subsequent rolls will start at or near the 1 + 1 times. Between those situations, you will incrementally increase the times. In my preferred one at a time scenario, I would divide the difference between the stock times and the 1 + 1 times by five, and that would be the time increment I would use for each of rolls 2 through 6.

Six rolls may be a bit too little, or (less likely) a bit too much - depends on how much working solution you are working with - but it should be close. My sense from reading your posts over the years is that you aren't the "control strips and densitometer" sort of precision photographer, so starting out with XTol that is a bit on the active side may not worry you.

Once your developer is seasoned, you should make a point of using the same size tank every time, and you should fill it every time. That will help maintain consistency. As you will be replenishing, you won't waste developer.

Each time you develop with replenished developer, you will:
a) load the tank with the films to be developed;
b) fill the tank with the working solution developer from the working solution developer bottle;
c) while the film is developing, add to the currently partly empty working solution developer bottle one shot of fresh developer - the replenisher - for each roll being developed;
d) when the development stage is finished, you will be pouring back the just used developer into the working solution bottle. Because of the added replenisher, there will be excess - that is to be discarded;

As for how much replenisher to add (and how much used developer will end up being excess), the Kodak recommendations for a starting point are/were 70 ml per roll of 135-36 or 120 film. You may prefer to use a bit more to start - say 80 ml/roll.

After the first five litre batch, 70 ml per roll of replenisher means that you can develop about 70 rolls of film per batch.
Over time, you will be able to see if the activity is tending toward too much (best to reduce slightly the amount of replenisher/roll), or too little (best to increase slightly the amount of replenisher/roll). Any change tends to be gradual and relatively easy to see.

One tip - I find it useful to pour the just used developer from the developing tank into an intermediate container first, and then while the film is in the stop bath, from the intermediate container into the working developer bottle. That makes it easier to gauge just how much to pour back into the working developer bottle, before discarding the rest. One of the big two litre plastic Paterson measuring graduates works perfectly for this.
Hope this helps.

This is great. Exactly what I needed. Thanks!

And you got it right I'm not a "control strips and densitometer" kind of fella. I do enough post processing that I've found nitpicking isn't a good use of my time. I'm using wobbly film anyhow most of the time so trying to nail down exacting processing as a pointless task anyhow.
 

pentaxuser

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I have been patiently reading what is now a 4 page thread on Xtol replenishment with a certain degree of clarity, then confusíon almost alternately as the thread "progressed" until I saw your summary of the essence of the 4 pages which covered the whole matter clearly and concisely, so thanks Matt

pentaxuser
 

Cholentpot

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Of the more concise and clear instructions I've seen on here. Very happy for the answer Matt.

Basically this means I can use Xtol for a very long time once it's seasoned just keep mixing up new batches of stock.
 

MattKing

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Of the more concise and clear instructions I've seen on here. Very happy for the answer Matt.

Basically this means I can use Xtol for a very long time once it's seasoned just keep mixing up new batches of stock.


Some of us have had a batch going for years - it is like sourdough bread :smile:.
If I've not developed any film for an unusually long while, I'll consider wasting a short roll of bulk film as a test.
Unlike some developers, XTol doesn't change appearance if it becomes contaminated or loses capacity.
As it is based at least partially on ascorbic acid as a developing agent, it is vulnerable to iron in the water. For that reason, I use good quality distilled water to mix it up.
Our tap water here is really good, so that extra caution is probably unnecessary, but still ...
 

Cholentpot

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Some of us have had a batch going for years - it is like sourdough bread :smile:.
If I've not developed any film for an unusually long while, I'll consider wasting a short roll of bulk film as a test.
Unlike some developers, XTol doesn't change appearance if it becomes contaminated or loses capacity.
As it is based at least partially on ascorbic acid as a developing agent, it is vulnerable to iron in the water. For that reason, I use good quality distilled water to mix it up.
Our tap water here is really good, so that extra caution is probably unnecessary, but still ...

As a sourdough fella this makes sense to me. Just keep the thing fed. Do you keep it stored in fridge? I use 1 liter pop bottles for all my chemistry. Never had an air contamination issue.
 

MattKing

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Do you keep it stored in fridge?

No!
Room temperature - which is quite temperate here on the edge of the temperate rainforest.
Over time you may see some grey sludge forming. Most likely it is gelatin. Filtering with lab grade filters is effective, but as it is mostly aesthetically displeasing ......
I use coffee filters instead.
 

Sirius Glass

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I have used and reused XTOL, but I get better results and more product usage with replenished XTOL. Using StopLossBagsTM from StopLossBags.com to store the stock and replenished solutions, I can safely use and store stock and replenished XTOL for over several years.
 

Donald Qualls

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My current setup has the working solution in a 2L soda bottle and the stock solution in a 5L wine bag/box. The wine bags are cheaper than the StopLossBags, and if it's good enough to keep red wine as an alternative to glass, IMO it's good enough for XTOL. They're also very convenient to dispense from; I can pour into a small beaker or graduate accurately enough not to need to worry about putting excess back into the stock container. Plus the 5L size is very conveniently the same size as the standard XTOL package (I'm actually using EcoPro at the moment, but it's functionally identical).

Now if I could just get the shelf in my darkroom to stay on the wall instead of popping the bracket out of the standard when I'm not around...
 

spijker

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I have used and reused XTOL, but I get better results and more product usage with replenished XTOL. Using StopLossBagsTM from StopLossBags.com to store the stock and replenished solutions, I can safely use and store stock and replenished XTOL for over several years.
Picked one up from the local Lee Valley store and filled it with Eco Pro paper developer. I'm using a Nova slot processor and replenish the developer with small amounts. The remaining concentrate should last longer now in the bag than in the bottle. Filling the bag with the included piece of flexible tube and a small funnel (not included) was easy. Good tip @Sirius Glass 👍
 
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Cholentpot

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I mixed up the Xtol in a bucket. Working solution is in a 2L coke bottle and everything else is in 1L seltzer bottles.

I seasoned the working solution with about 10 rolls of what I always saw as my trash film. Old HP5+ bulk cine film and Aviphot 200.

I gotta say, it ain't trash film anymore. Xtol did a really nice job with that expired film. In the past it was very grainy and basically just test rolls for me to test cameras. With Xtol it came out quite nice. The grain is tempered and there's latitude in there now. I'm going to chalk this up to one of those things I should have tried earlier.

I've been converted to the congregation of Xtol. Now to see if the replenished stuff is even better.
 

Donald Qualls

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Now to see if the replenished stuff is even better.

Not better, IMO -- but it stays that good for a long time and pretty cheaply (especially when you're into the second 5L package).
 

Sirius Glass

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I mixed up the Xtol in a bucket. Working solution is in a 2L coke bottle and everything else is in 1L seltzer bottles.

I seasoned the working solution with about 10 rolls of what I always saw as my trash film. Old HP5+ bulk cine film and Aviphot 200.

I gotta say, it ain't trash film anymore. Xtol did a really nice job with that expired film. In the past it was very grainy and basically just test rolls for me to test cameras. With Xtol it came out quite nice. The grain is tempered and there's latitude in there now. I'm going to chalk this up to one of those things I should have tried earlier.

I've been converted to the congregation of Xtol. Now to see if the replenished stuff is even better.

Make sure that you push out all the air in the XTOL bottles.
 

Cholentpot

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Not better, IMO -- but it stays that good for a long time and pretty cheaply (especially when you're into the second 5L package).

I'll let you know how it goes. I've finished my burner films for now and moving onto the nicer stuff.

Make sure that you push out all the air in the XTOL bottles.

Been in practice with this for my D-76 and fixer. Plastic pop bottles are surprisingly effective.
 

Sirius Glass

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I'll let you know how it goes. I've finished my burner films for now and moving onto the nicer stuff.



Been in practice with this for my D-76 and fixer. Plastic pop bottles are surprisingly effective.

Just make sure that the bottles are well labeled so that no one chugges the XTOL.
 

MattKing

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You don't sip your developers? At a nice dilution HC110 makes for a fine drink on a warm day.

So tempted to post something like "this explains so much!".
But I'll resist 😇 .
 
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