Reusing XTOL

[Ian Grant]

I have run sink lines, roller transports, and other such with replenishment and my conclusion is...don't try this at home. It's not that you can't do it, but you need to modify your stock solution with either a starter or by running a certain amount of film through the stock developer before the working solution stabilizes. Unless you process a lot of film or use a large quantity of developer you will never have enough "chemical inertia" to overcome any small errors from roll to roll. It also required a densitometer and process control strips to have any real hope of consistent results. (And I know there will be tons on anecdotal rebuttal to that last statement along the lines of we don't need no stinkin' control strips or charts, stating that it's always worked for me without any of that bother.) I eventually decided that running film processing at home it is much more economical to run my developer(s) one shot. (This factors in my time expenditures.)

What a total load of rubbish. It's so easy to replenish developers at home, I began aged 15 while at school, later working commercially and as a photo-chemist.

Ian

 

[John Wiegerink]

I have run sink lines, roller transports, and other such with replenishment and my conclusion is...don't try this at home. It's not that you can't do it, but you need to modify your stock solution with either a starter or by running a certain amount of film through the stock developer before the working solution stabilizes. Unless you process a lot of film or use a large quantity of developer you will never have enough "chemical inertia" to overcome any small errors from roll to roll. It also required a densitometer and process control strips to have any real hope of consistent results. (And I know there will be tons on anecdotal rebuttal to that last statement along the lines of we don't need no stinkin' control strips or charts, stating that it's always worked for me without any of that bother.) I eventually decided that running film processing at home it is much more economical to run my developer(s) one shot. (This factors in my time expenditures.)

Have you tried Xtol replenished as we describe it here? I'm just curious of course and not being snotty about it.

 

[John Wiegerink]

One other point I like and it's one of the reasons I like this Xtol replenished system is that I can use my Yankee sheet film tank to process film again. This tank holds a lot of developer and dumping that much down the drain made this Hollander cry. With Xtol-R I don't dump it down the drain, but right back in the working solution jug. Nice on the pocketbook too!

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have run sink lines, roller transports, and other such with replenishment and my conclusion is...don't try this at home. It's not that you can't do it, but you need to modify your stock solution with either a starter or by running a certain amount of film through the stock developer before the working solution stabilizes. Unless you process a lot of film or use a large quantity of developer you will never have enough "chemical inertia" to overcome any small errors from roll to roll. It also required a densitometer and process control strips to have any real hope of consistent results. (And I know there will be tons on anecdotal rebuttal to that last statement along the lines of we don't need no stinkin' control strips or charts, stating that it's always worked for me without any of that bother.) I eventually decided that running film processing at home it is much more economical to run my developer(s) one shot. (This factors in my time expenditures.)

Can I use this to fertilize my garden?

What a total load of rubbish. It's so easy to replenish developers at home, I began aged 15 while at school, later working commercially and as a photo-chemist.

Ian

You are being much too kind.

Have you tried Xtol replenished as we describe it here? I'm just curious of course and not being snotty about it.

I doubt that Mike has.

 

[darkroommike]

Wow, even w

What a total load of rubbish. It's so easy to replenish developers at home, I began aged 15 while at school, later working commercially and as a photo-chemist.

Ian

Are you always this rude or were you having a bad day, Ian? Not everyone is Ian Grant. Most of the bad film developing I have witnessed in 45 years is from people reusing/overusing developers with or without proper replenishment. I have rarely had three people jump on me for one posting. MY OPINION is just as valid as any other OPINION on this forum or this post. I have not used XTOL, that much is true, but XTOL, in spite of its reputed virtues, is no sort of magic elixir and has the same issues as any other developer when reused, and that is the stuff that comes out of the bottle is different every time you use it. The only scheme that does not have that issue is that where your replenishment replaces 100% of the developer used every time with fresh developer. Or if you use a recommended Kodak Starter to pre-season the tank, then you can achieve some sort of steady state, I assume that you all are using your densitometer and process monitoring strips? No. I, too, have been processing film since I was 15 and my experiences are just as valid as those of any other old fogy on APUG, and the conclusion I long ago reached was that unless you are processing a huge amount of film and/or capable of monitoring a system you are best off using one shot processing. Chemicals are the cheapest part of your darkroom work, don't be cheap.

 

[Ian Grant]

Wow, even w

Are you always this rude or were you having a bad day, Ian? Not everyone is Ian Grant. Most of the bad film developing I have witnessed in 45 years is from people reusing developers with or without proper replenishment.

There was nothing rude in saying that I felt what you wrote was rubbish. That's from years of experience without a densitometer and control strips.

There are circumstances where I wouldn't trust replenishemnt. I shared a film darkroom and its deep tank line with 2 other photographers, we always knew we could trust we'd replenished properly and also could spot when ID-11/D76 was starting to collapse. However unless closely monitored I wouldn't trust a replenishemnt system used by quite a few others.

However this thread is about Xtol and it's more robust with no Metol and it doesn't suffer sudden failure from Bromide build up, the replenishment rate is higher than the rate of exhaustion so it stays remarkably stable.

You are being much too kind.

I'm just being realistic as I've known a lot of people replenishing on a smaller scale as suggested here and not one has had problems.

Ian

 

[John Wiegerink]

I'm sorry, but I agree with Ian on this one. The simple reason is this, I ask the person Ian made the, so called, rude reply to if he had ever tried Xtol replenished. Since I got "no" reply from him I'd have to say the answer was no. Therefore he should not make a comment on something he has never tried since that might sway others from a practice that works perfectly fine and is as easy as "one shot". Maybe easier?

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Whipped up a batch of 5L and developed my first roll of film today (stock solution, 6x6). VERY happy with the results looking under the loupe, it has a 3d pop it.

I'm a little confused though... trying to understand how long I can reuse the solution for? I made two containers, one 3L which will be the working solution, and another 2L which will be the replenisher. After using 1/2L today, I poured it back into the working solution.

Question time:
1. How much and how often do I have to replenish.. assuming 1 roll of 120 or 2 rolls of 135 per use?
2. How long is the solution good for.
3. If I want to try diluted 1:1 or 1:2, do I throw out that solution or can it also be reused with the addition of replenisher and how much?
4. Going to try d76 soon as well. Do the same rules apply?

-thanks in advance,
1kgcoffee

I replenish my XTOL. I use 70mls per roll of 120 or 35mm film. I notice after a while, my working solution gets a little tired. My negs look slightly thin so sometimes I use more that 70ml/roll. You really can't over replenish since your replenisher and working solution is the same. I do this for the economy and the look of seasoned developers.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I replenish my XTOL. I use 70mls per roll of 120 or 35mm film. I notice after a while, my working solution gets a little tired. My negs look slightly thin so sometimes I use more that 70ml/roll. You really can't over replenish since your replenisher and working solution is the same. I do this for the economy and the look of seasoned developers.

I went up from 70ml to 80ml and that seems better for my style system. Yes, economy + results = happy camper. Plus, like I said above, I don't cry using the big volume Yankee 4x5 tank anymore 'cause the developer goes back in the jug and not down the drain. If I didn't use Xtol-R for the Yankee I think I'd try working with Kodak DK-50 replenished. I have used DK-50 diluted for 35mm and it was very, very sharp and grain was no problem with 100 ISO speed film. So that would be my next choice for the big Yankee tank.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I don't wish to offend anyone, but I believe that stating opinion about something that one hasn't tried or have no personal experience with is not helpful. And at the risk of sounding disrespectful, using such opinion as argumentation in this case is misleading because it doesn't reflect reality and experience of those who actually have tried it and have empirical evidence of the contrary.

Fact: I have used Xtol as a replenished developer for five years, my only developer. Not once did I have to start over fresh because the developer had gone bad, and I went through dozens of 5 liter packs. I also went through periods of developing zero film for months, and all I had to do was to replenish 70ml every two weeks and the developer worked just as before when I started using it again. My working solution was 2 liters.

Xtol IS different. It is not the same as D76, HC-110, ID-11, or Ilfotec DD. You just replenish to make up for lost activity and simply don't worry at all about bromide buildup. At 70-80ml per roll replenishment rate, and a sufficiently large working solution, the developer is incredibly stable, roll to roll.

 

[MattKing]

You just replenish to make up for lost activity and simply don't worry at all about bromide buildup.

The relatively large amount of replenisher used is part of the reason that bromide build-up isn't a problem. Remember, if you are adding 70 ml of the unused developer, you are also discarding 70ml of the previously used developer.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

The relatively large amount of replenisher used is part of the reason that bromide build-up isn't a problem. Remember, if you are adding 70 ml of the unused developer, you are also discarding 70ml of the previously used developer.

What I do is always keep my working solution topped off. While I'm still agitating my developer, I dump the replenisher into my working solution. When I'm ready to put the used developer back into my working developer, I just top top the bottle off. It keeps air from getting into my working solution. My replenishment XTOL is in a wine bladder so that batch is also free of air also.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

What I do is always keep my working solution topped off. While I'm still agitating my developer, I dump the replenisher into my working solution. When I'm ready to put the used developer back into my working developer, I just top top the bottle off. It keeps air from getting into my working solution. My replenishment XTOL is in a wine bladder so that batch is also free of air also.

That's exactly what I do also. It insures I get the right amount of replenishing solution into the container before the used developer is poured back after film development, and as you say it helps keep the container completely full to remove all air.

 

[John Wiegerink]

What I do is always keep my working solution topped off. While I'm still agitating my developer, I dump the replenisher into my working solution. When I'm ready to put the used developer back into my working developer, I just top top the bottle off. It keeps air from getting into my working solution. My replenishment XTOL is in a wine bladder so that batch is also free of air also.

Mine is in a wine bladder also and the working solution is in a brown gallon glass jug. I top mine off exactly the same way. Nice easy system once you get the hang of it.

 

[darkroommike]

Let's see you have 2 liters of working solution (some chap said he was using Yankee 4x5 tank) so work with me here. You now have 3 liters of replenisher, with me so far? At 80ml per roll of replenisher that's 37.5 rolls, let's round up to 38 rolls. 5 liters of Xtol 1+1 will process 20 rolls and you get to use FRESH developer for every roll. Developer is cheap. Replenishment on this scale (and I don't care what developer you are using) just does not make sense. If I am using a system like my Unicolor Film Drum and do 4 rolls at a time thats 330ml of stock and 330ml of water for 4 rolls or 82.5 ml of FRESH developer per roll and that's 60 rolls per jug. BTW I know that there's a whole bunch of folks on here that regard Xtol as "wonder soup" but I'm not discussing any specific developer, I'm sure Ian Grant was not using Xtol when he was fifteen unless he's a lot younger than I was led to believe.

 

[MattKing]

At 80ml per roll of replenisher that's 37.5 rolls, let's round up to 38 rolls. 5 liters of Xtol 1+1 will process 20 rolls and you get to use FRESH developer for every roll.

Except you don't toss the working solution. Your next 5 litre package is when you really start reaping the benefits. It gives you 60 - 70 more rolls of developed film, and you get the other benefits of replenishment as well.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Let's see you have 2 liters of working solution (some chap said he was using Yankee 4x5 tank) so work with me here. You now have 3 liters of replenisher, with me so far? At 80ml per roll of replenisher that's 37.5 rolls, let's round up to 38 rolls. 5 liters of Xtol 1+1 will process 20 rolls and you get to use FRESH developer for every roll. Developer is cheap. Replenishment on this scale (and I don't care what developer you are using) just does not make sense. If I am using a system like my Unicolor Film Drum and do 4 rolls at a time thats 330ml of stock and 330ml of water for 4 rolls or 82.5 ml of FRESH developer per roll and that's 60 rolls per jug. BTW I know that there's a whole bunch of folks on here that regard Xtol as "wonder soup" but I'm not discussing any specific developer, I'm sure Ian Grant was not using Xtol when he was fifteen unless he's a lot younger than I was led to believe.

How many sheets of 4x5 or 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 can you do in your drum? I only use the Yankee for 4x5 and a on a very seldom occasion 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 sheets. I only replenish for the amount of sq. in. of film processed. How 'bout you just continue to use your drum and I'll continue to use my Xtol-R and we'll both live happily ever after. At least I know I will anyway. Ah, I also don't think Ian was insinuating he was using Xtol at age 15, but instead mentions ID-11/D76 in a replenished system.

 

[Ian Grant]

Let's see you have 2 liters of working solution (some chap said he was using Yankee 4x5 tank) so work with me here. You now have 3 liters of replenisher, with me so far? At 80ml per roll of replenisher that's 37.5 rolls, let's round up to 38 rolls. 5 liters of Xtol 1+1 will process 20 rolls and you get to use FRESH developer for every roll. Developer is cheap. Replenishment on this scale (and I don't care what developer you are using) just does not make sense. If I am using a system like my Unicolor Film Drum and do 4 rolls at a time thats 330ml of stock and 330ml of water for 4 rolls or 82.5 ml of FRESH developer per roll and that's 60 rolls per jug. BTW I know that there's a whole bunch of folks on here that regard Xtol as "wonder soup" but I'm not discussing any specific developer, I'm sure Ian Grant was not using Xtol when he was fifteen unless he's a lot younger than I was led to believe.

Replenishment on this scale makes total sense, Kodak's 70ml replenishment per 35mm 36ex, 120 or 4 4x5 sheets is actually overkill. Why don't you try it for yourself instead of arguing against it with no factual or practical experience ?

Xtol is by far the best of all Kodak's developers way better than D76, I used nit replenished as soon as it became available in the UK prior to that I'd replenished ID-11 (D76) and Adox Borax MQ as well as Microphen (ID-68).

Ian

 

[Maris]

My Xtol stock is replenished at 90ml per "standard film" because I do a lot of open tray development and oxidation takes its toll. But the stock bottle was started in 2007 and is still going strong, consistent, and predictable. All my films go through this developer just at different times as determined by experiment. Last time I calculated the cost it was 27 cents per "standard film". No complaints.

 

[John Wiegerink]

My Xtol stock is replenished at 90ml per "standard film" because I do a lot of open tray development and oxidation takes its toll. But the stock bottle was started in 2007 and is still going strong, consistent, and predictable. All my films go through this developer just at different times as determined by experiment. Last time I calculated the cost it was 27 cents per "standard film". No complaints.

OMG Maris. that can't be! Just kidding! I hope my batch last that long. Actually, I hope I last that long. Getting old sucks, but it's a fact of life.

 

[Sirius Glass]

There was nothing rude in saying that I felt what you wrote was rubbish. That's from years of experience without a densitometer and control strips.

There are circumstances where I wouldn't trust replenishemnt. I shared a film darkroom and its deep tank line with 2 other photographers, we always knew we could trust we'd replenished properly and also could spot when ID-11/D76 was starting to collapse. However unless closely monitored I wouldn't trust a replenishemnt system used by quite a few others.

However this thread is about Xtol and it's more robust with no Metol and it doesn't suffer sudden failure from Bromide build up, the replenishment rate is higher than the rate of exhaustion so it stays remarkably stable.



I'm just being realistic as I've known a lot of people replenishing on a smaller scale as suggested here and not one has had problems.

Ian

I'm sorry, but I agree with Ian on this one. The simple reason is this, I ask the person Ian made the, so called, rude reply to if he had ever tried Xtol replenished. Since I got "no" reply from him I'd have to say the answer was no. Therefore he should not make a comment on something he has never tried since that might sway others from a practice that works perfectly fine and is as easy as "one shot". Maybe easier?

I am with Ian Grant on this one. Replenishing XTOL is not only cost effective, provides superior results and is forgiving, but also it is as easy to use as falling off a motor cycle.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I am with Ian Grant on this one. Replenishing XTOL is not only cost effective, provides superior results and is forgiving, but also it is as easy to use as falling off a motor cycle.

It is indeed very easy. Almost the best thing about using Xtol in this way is that all we need is Xtol. No starter, no special replenishing solution, just Xtol.
There were times where I wanted to try push processing film, and Xtol 1:1 works extremely well for that purpose, and all I had to do was take some of the Xtol I normally use for replenishing, so in essence it's two developers in one. That's a big bonus.

 

[John Wiegerink]

It is indeed very easy. Almost the best thing about using Xtol in this way is that all we need is Xtol. No starter, no special replenishing solution, just Xtol.
There were times where I wanted to try push processing film, and Xtol 1:1 works extremely well for that purpose, and all I had to do was take some of the Xtol I normally use for replenishing, so in essence it's two developers in one. That's a big bonus.

Yes Thomas, that's what I was trying to say above as to using a different dilution. You just said it better than I did.

 

[Richard Man]

I just mixed up a 5L batch of XTOL, I will give this replenishment thing a go. One question, the PDF from Kodak http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/j109.pdf indeed does give times for replenished development. However, what about films that are not listed? For rotary processing using a Jobo, is 20% longer time a good starting point, more or less?

Thanks.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I just mixed up a 5L batch of XTOL, I will give this replenishment thing a go. One question, the PDF from Kodak http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/j109.pdf indeed does give times for replenished development. However, what about films that are not listed? For rotary processing using a Jobo, is 20% longer time a good starting point, more or less?

Thanks.

I started out using 1+1 times and it got me very close to my final times. Actually, for my style I had to shorten the 1+1 times a little after a few rolls. I can't comment as to rotary processing, but I'm sure other folks will be able to help you out there.