Replacing shutter blinds (and probably more) on a Thornton Pickard Ruby Deluxe 1/4 plate

[Digital Wendy]

I'm feeling a bit lost in this restoration today. There are lots of resources here but I lose track of the threads. Could an experienced forum user direct me to a current post with live links please? (sorry to sound whiney)

My Thornton Pickard Ruby Deluxe (Quarter plate) is back in pieces for me to fit new blinds. It's now clean. I have the shutter fabric, silk ribbons, replacement screws, lots of notes and hand-drawn diagrams from disassembly and, hopefully, most of what I need. However, I've reached a 'not sure why I'm doing this' and 'will it actually work' point in this project.

I'm 60% confident I can build and fit new shutter blinds and get them to run. Problem is I cannot see how the 'speed dial' on the outside of the leather covered box will ever connect with the cogs and gears that control the two shutter blinds. I'm worried something is missing (either camera hardware or my brain software)

Camera shows signs of earlier work and possibly adaptation. I have every reason to believe that was while it was still in use. It's generally in good condition, with a massive (possibly not original) lens I am keen to try.

Despite the 'Deluxe' labelling and blue velvet-lined case, the inner workings are of inconsistent quality and rough finish (I've seen this mentioned by a restorer who worked on an 'own brand' model, and can now confirm that it also applies to a TP Ruby deluxe, Can no longer find that website either)

Questions:

• Is someone ahead of me in this Thornton Pickard Ruby shutter rebuild with tips and encouragement to share?
• How do I keep track of threads and links on this incredibly rich forum. I'm only in intermittent user and 'lose the thread' constantly.

A big 'Thank you' to everyone who contributes here. Hopefully a cuppa and some fresh air will restore ME today, and a bit of extra advice will doubtless help with the camera!

ps. Am taking a LOT of pictures throughout this project. If they will help anyone else I'm happy to share.
pps. What is the max file size for photos . . . ? and am I even asking this question in the correct part of this forum?

 

[Ian Grant]

There's some variation in the shutters, as TP improved then over the years. The advantage of the TP reflexes is the whole shutter and mirror box comes out as a unit, making it easier to work on, and test.

It's some years since I worked on one, also I have another I started restoring in 2012, it's still half finished, The body was damaged and the unit shutter’s mirror box assembly broken, I did repair it and add a new mirror. It has sat in a display cabinet for too long waiting re-assembly.

It might be useful sharing notes, also I'm just over an hour from Oxford. I have two or three more Ruby reflexes, plus some other makes to restore.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

You can cut-and-paste images directly into threads, too large and they get re-sized, but you can click and open full size. In practice, I tend to stick to around approx 800x600.

Ian

 

[Digital Wendy]

Thank you, Ian. Really grateful for the input.
When you took yours apart did you see any connection between the outside mechanism that should change the shutter speed ( the dial with the little silver sprung locking knob) and the shutter mechanism inside? This part has me very puzzled.

Mine had a back-silvered mirror - likely not original. I have a new one (but could only get 3mm, not 2mm) Now wondering whether I should hunt out a front silvered, even thinner, option

 

[Ian Grant]

You can get a new front silvered mirror from Vacuum Coatings Ltd (Scientific Mirrors) in London. They can supply the correct thickness, they can also re-silver existing mirrors, actually Aluminium is used these days. You definitely don't have the original, and a normal mirror will give ghosting.

My camera (above) is also a quarter plate Ruby Reflex, I have the original mirror which I sent as a pattern, I can measure the thickness for you, I think it’s 1.5mm, maybe thinner. The original lenses were 5¾" TTH Cooke Series II triplets. They are marked various ways, TTK Ltd T.P, Anastignat, TTH Cooke Anastigmat, or Cooke-Luxor.

The shutter speed is altered by cocking the shutter, the further counter-clockwise the slower as that alters the position of one of the curtains relative to the other, changing the slit width, I do have a fully working 6x9 Ruby Reflex if you want to see one working, In terms of linking the knob just need to be in the right position.

Ian

 

[ProfessorC1983]

Just following along here as I have a T-P Junior Special Ruby Reflex I'm cautiously considering opening up to attempt a CLA and address a sluggish blind. I suspect it would be the same shutter mechanism as the quarter-plate model?

 

[Digital Wendy]

You can get a new front silvered mirror from Vacuum Coatings Ltd (Scientific Mirrors) in London. They can supply the correct thickness, they can also re-silver existing mirrors, actually Aluminium is used these days. You definitely don't have the original, and a normal mirror will give ghosting.

My camera (above) is also a quarter plate Ruby Reflex, I have the original mirror which I sent as a pattern, I can measure the thickness for you, I think it’s 1.5mm, maybe thinner. The original lenses were 5¾" TTH Cooke Series II triplets. They are marked various ways, TTK Ltd T.P, Anastignat, TTH Cooke Anastigmat, or Cooke-Luxor.

The shutter speed is altered by cocking the shutter, the further counter-clockwise the slower as that alters the position of one of the curtains relative to the other, changing the slit width, I do have a fully working 6x9 Ruby Reflex if you want to see one working, In terms of linking the knob just need to be in the right position.

Ian

All hugely helpful - thankyou! The shutter speed makes sense now too. Once the thing is dismantled it's very hard to see that it works that way!

AND I can now add a photo here (which may perhaps help someone else too.

 

[Digital Wendy]

Just following along here as I have a T-P Junior Special Ruby Reflex I'm cautiously considering opening up to attempt a CLA and address a sluggish blind. I suspect it would be the same shutter mechanism as the quarter-plate model?

CLA?

Shutter on mine became 'sluggish' shortly before the tapes all gave way and the blind fabric cracked in many places. Be prepared to find fabric and tapes heading that way if you decide to open it up.

Have just sewn a seam on the most expensive piece of fabric I have ever used - rubber coated silk shutter fabric from Japan!

Have you seen this? http://licm.org.uk/livingImage/Project06.html I can now confirm that the workmanship is equally poor on the 'branded' Ruby's as on the unmarked versions sold to retailers. Mine says 'De Luxe too!

 

[Digital Wendy]

Here's the lens.

Heavy and feels like it's set into a large chunk of metal. Not sure how/whether I can change the stops so I'll need to dismantle it eventually. For now it's clean and functional - as long as DoF is not important!

 

[Ian Grant]

That camera's more like my 6x9 Ruby reflex, as it has a rotating back.

I have plenty of the correct shutter cloth as I routinely restore TP roller blind shutters, something I've been doing for over 15 years. I also supply one of the leading US restorers, he uses it for 7x5 Portrait Graphics, they have a shutter curtain around 60" long. I also have a large roll of the Japanese rubberised silk shutter cloth which is only suitable for 35mm & MF cameras, it lacks dimensional stability wider than 6cm.

That f2.5 TTH Cooke lens is worth a lot of money they are very rare, it's faster than the CZJ f2.7 165mm Tessar, or the f2.9 Dallmeyer, you rotate the rim of the lens to change aperture. It's likely the original lens.

Ian

 

[Digital Wendy]

Yes I do remember that the lens is a bit special. Interesting to hear that it's original and 'De Luxe' meant more than just the case.
The lens is one of the reasons I kept this camera and I'm keen to try it out.
I've run out of glue to fix in the shutter stays so work now on hold, probably until next weekend. Feeling much better about this project thanks to replies here today.

 

[ProfessorC1983]

That camera's more like my 6x9 Ruby reflex, as it has a rotating back.

I have plenty of the correct shutter cloth as I routinely restore TP roller blind shutters, something I've been doing for over 15 years. I also supply one of the leading US restorers, he uses it for 7x5 Portrait Graphics, they have a shutter curtain around 60" long. I also have a large roll of the Japanese rubberised silk shutter cloth which is only suitable for 35mm & MF cameras, it lacks dimensional stability wider than 6cm.

That f2.5 TTH Cooke lens is worth a lot of money they are very rare, it's faster than the CZJ f2.7 165mm Tessar, or the f2.9 Dallmeyer, you rotate the rim of the lens to change aperture. It's likely the original lens.

Ian

Yes, my Junior has a rotating back. Sounds very similar to yours.

Who is the US-based restorer you'd recommend? I'd much rather have mine worked on by someone who knows these cameras than try to ham-hand it myself.

 

[Ian Grant]

Yes, my Junior has a rotating back. Sounds very similar to yours.

Who is the US-based restorer you'd recommend? I'd much rather have mine worked on by someone who knows these cameras than try to ham-hand it myself.

I don't know anyone suitable in the US, the restorer I supplied has retired.

Ian

 

[Digital Wendy]

Posting again here this evening to encourage myself along with this project. Truly fiddly and I've run out of copydex to avoid my shutter tapes fraying.

On a positive note I discovered a new source of 7mm silk tape this week. VV Rouleaux in Marylebone Lane London. https://www.vvrouleaux.com/

Possibly less densely woven than the original tapes. Perhaps it won't need to last for another 100 years, so I think it will be fine!

 

[Digital Wendy]

Cutting, sewing and gluing the shutter blinds together, was fiddly work (and I sew a LOT) but it's done now. I fussed with things to keep them square - not sure I succeeded.

Got the ribbons sewn on, and cleaned out the sprung tensioning rollers ( as per @Ian Grant suggestion's on another post). Was surprised at how little grunge came out of the rollers in the first warm soapy water. Resisted the temptation to take them apart to see how they work! Dried them out with Isopropyl alcohol and they are back in place with a couple of drops of sewing machine oil.

Blinds are now glued to the bottom roller, and fitted around the central axle of the upper, hollow roller.

Can't decide whether the thinner, less dense, tapes I have used will affect the ultimate shutter speeds. I can see that the thickness of the blinds would make a difference, but not sure the tapes are so critical as they seem unlikely to rewind completely parallel every time.

Will post a few pictures . . .

 

[Digital Wendy]

Here are some of my notes on the shutter blind dimensions for a TP Ruby Deluxe Quarter plate.

Top blind is 135mm to the stich line (gap in roller sleeve) and then 10mm extra to fold over the metal stiffener and glue in place. Probably 17mm needed inside to roller sleeve.
135 + 10+ 17 = 157mm long. 115mm wide.
Top blind tapes are 250mm plus extra for fixing onto blind over the stiffener.

Bottom blind is 160mm plus 10mm fold for stiffener = 170mm long and 115mm wide. Remaining tapes are 250mm long (extra probably needed to go inside roller sleeves)

(Have just read that one of these tape lengths is incorrect. Will update later)

 

[Digital Wendy]

Pictures from today.
I am now trying to reset the shutter with the second, inner, blind in place.
Have just explained to my husband that if I ever, ever say I'm going to fix a camera he should immediately offer to buy me a new one instead! .

 

[Ian Grant]

Two days ago I stripped down my third TP reflex, a quarter plate Special Ruby, the shutter didn't work. However, I spotted why, and it was a quick job to fix the shutter. The wrong glue had been used to attach the tapes, and they came undone. Also, the second shutter blind had a twisted ta[e and was not running straight.

There were creases in the 2nd shutter curtain, now fixed, ribbons reinforced. I've restored the body, the camera was in the oven for a while, so paint could dry, it's damp and cold here in the UK May give a second coat today, just the glossy wooden bits.

These TP reflex cameras aren't all the same, even when the same format, the Special is larger than my Ruby Reflex, body and the shutter taller. Other differences is the first has its mirror box fully attached to the shutter and the plate holder part of the back has to be removed to rotate it..

My second TP reflex is a smaller 6,5x9 camera and fully working, it has a fixed rotating back and a 6x9 12o roll film holder. The third, which is the one I'm currently working on, has a fixed rotating back, but the shutter fit is different to both those shown here as I had to unscrew both sides of the camera to access the screws holding it in place. Photos later.

Ian

 

[Digital Wendy]

They really ARE all very different!

 

[Ian Grant]

The Special Ruby

The bare body shutter removed, repainted.

Camera body sides, rising front/lens board panel, mirror holder parts, and rotating back, again all repainted.

The shutter, 2nd curtain installed. This is the one that controls the slit width, so consequently shutter speed, during exposure.

I need to order a new front silvered mirror tomorrow, and also make a ground glass screen, both were missing.

Ian

 

[Digital Wendy]

That shutter assembly on your 'Special' is the closest match to my 'DeLuxe'.
My focussing mechanism is mounted in the bottom, under the shutter/mirror space.

 

[Ian Grant]

For reference:

Shutter detail of my g=first Ruby Reflex.

Mirror box & shutter.

There is a spring not sitting correctly, without a functioning shutter it was difficult to resolve. In this image the shutter is un-cocked, the two curtains should overlap by approx 1/4 of an inch as it's a self capping shutter. So I need to adjust the 2nd curtain.

I sent these via PM 3 days ago, but they may be useful to others.

The shutters stamped Patent no 6283-12 are essentially mechanically the same, the take-up drums are simpler than in the Patent drawing. The main differences are in the mirror fitting.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

Make sure the underside of the mirror holder is painted matt black, no scratches. You will need to add material under the mirror because of the cut out, also it forms a light seal. See PM.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

An advert for Wendy's camera, unfortunately my 1926 BJP Almanac was slightly water damaged, so the page isn't flat (and my Iron has broken).

I should have an advert or new product listing for the TTH Cooke f2.5 lens.

My Special Ruby has a slightly different front standard, and takes interchangeable lens boards.

Ian

 

[Digital Wendy]

View attachment 305059

An advert for Wendy's camera, unfortunately my 1926 BJP Almanac was slightly water damaged, so the page isn't flat (and my Iron has broken).

I should have an advert or new product listing for the TTH Cooke f2.5 lens.

View attachment 305060

My Special Ruby has a slightly different front standard, and takes interchangeable lens boards.

Ian

Thanks so much for these, fascinating to see the marketing.
Thought mine would be 100 this yes, and now realise that the 2.5 lens makes it a mere youngster!