Replacing shutter blinds (and probably more) on a Thornton Pickard Ruby Deluxe 1/4 plate

[ProbablyPasta]

My goodness! That's quite a project. It's going to be a fantastic piece of kit to use.
@Ian Grant is developing a theory that Thornton Pickard never made 2 cameras the same and this one looks different again to me.
A little gentle cleaning will make that mirror quite useable for a while - the gaps may eventually annoy you but it will work fine like that.
The fabric on those shutter blinds does not look the same as my original ones. The fabric looks thicker which may be why they are still in fair condition. I kept the the old ones somewhere - I'll check at the weekend.
I used 1/4" silk ribbon, stitched and glued onto the shutter blinds.
Your focus issues are puzzling. My lens opens to f/2.8. It's huge and bright and the depth of field is paper thin if I use it that way, but I never have trouble focussing. At f/8 it's less bright, of course, but still useable. Is your focussing cone intact right up to the narrow part for your eyes?

A quarter inch silk ribbons it is! still kind of messing about with the lengths and how to attach them properly, currently doing that with a very ugly piece of green synthetic fabric as a test run, but i’ll figure it out
And yes, when i first got the camera in my hands i thought that there had to be something wrong with the lens/mirror, but the lens checks out (i think). F8 is the widest aperture i have, im not sure why whoever created the lens felt the need for it to be able to go all the way to f64? But anything under f32 shows up as a bright splotchy mess, it’s extremely annoying.
i don’t have any other large format lenses laying around to test with unfortunately. It could be that the DOF is so thin that it’s impossible to pull anything into focus?
I’m also not sure if my camera would fit into ian’s theory, as i’m quite certain someone had worked on this camera before, so i have no guarantee that the curtains are original. there’s a screw missing, nothing critical fortunately, one of the two side screws that hold the plate with the shutter speeds onto the camera.
That, and the fact that when i got it, someone had decided that the best solution for broken ribbons was to simply glue the two blinds together with a little bit of ribbon . Not the best solution, as that isn’t how the shutter works at all.
Glad those broke, as i would have still been sitting at my desk scratching my head at how this darn thing works (once again thank you to ian for his contributions as i did not know this, and thought i’d be able to fix it if just re-glued them)

Once i get back home i’ll slide the mirror box back in so i can make a picture of just how weird the focus/DOF acts, as i’m not a 100% certain on what a focus cone is

 

[Digital Wendy]

. . . But anything under f32 shows up as a bright splotchy mess, it’s extremely annoying. i don’t have any other large format lenses laying around to test with unfortunately. It could be that the DOF is so thin that it’s impossible to pull anything into focus?

Something not quite right here.
The mirror fastenings match the way mine looked, so I doubt the mirror has moved.
The lens board looks a bit unusual, both from the side and the outside. Does the lens lift in and out?
Have you removed a lens element to take the picture of the aperture leaves?

 

[ProbablyPasta]

Something not quite right here.
The mirror fastenings match the way mine looked, so I doubt the mirror has moved.
The lens board looks a bit unusual, both from the side and the outside. Does the lens lift in and out?
Have you removed a lens element to take the picture of the aperture leaves?

The lens has a screw in/out design. I think if i remove a few screws it does support lens boards, but don’t quote me on that. For the picture of the aperture blades i simply unscrewed the back element, thankfully a lot simpler than other lenses i’ve worked on. Aperture was a bit gunky and stiff due to old oil but just needed a good clean. back element (after a good cleaning too) is now back on the lens

It could be something like a misaligned mirror, or the focusing screen having gone bad somehow? it seems intact to me though, other than a small chip on the side.

 

[awty]

Hope it's going well. They are amazing cameras to use.
What size is it and what kind of lens do you have?
Right now mine is being used with a Lomograflok back for instant colour pictures. Hugely entertaining for everyone.
Once I have another camera for the Lomograflok I'll switch 'Ruby' back to film work.
Instagram link for Ruby in action with the Lomograflok back

Nice work.
I've been cutting up sheet film to fit in my 1/4 plate holders. I've tried Ambrotype but keep scratching the emulsion, need to modify a plate holder better.
I use a Ensign Popular SLR with a 1860's majic lantern lens. The old shutter was all gummed up but I managed to get it working on all speeds with a little TLC.

 

[Digital Wendy]

Nice work.
I've been cutting up sheet film to fit in my 1/4 plate holders. I've tried Ambrotype but keep scratching the emulsion, need to modify a plate holder better.
I use a Ensign Popular SLR with a 1860's majic lantern lens. The old shutter was all gummed up but I managed to get it working on all speeds with a little TLC.

Intriguing images from that lens.Did you have any of the alignment issues @ProbablyPasta is facing when you fitted the lens?
Cutting sheet film in the dark is a bit of a trick - but once I figured out a system it now goes well. Glad you have suceeded too.

 

[Digital Wendy]

It could be something like a misaligned mirror, or the focusing screen having gone bad somehow? it seems intact to me though, other than a small chip on the side.

The ground glass should be in register with the ground side down. If it has been replaced with something thicker than the original it might be less bright but, as long as the ground side is down, it should be in register. Ground glass is very simple and there's not much can go wrong with it.
Perhaps post a picture of the ground glass focussing screen assembly here?

@Ian Grant will make you a lovely bright, new focussing screen if you need it. In the meantime cleaning it gently with a soft cloth and alchohol might make a difference.
If you point the camera at a far distant object (infinity), with the aperture open, the bellows closed and the lens board up againt the camera, is it in focus? If not then at what point does that distant object come into focus?.
Mine has an additional GG screen for the back so I can flip up the mirror and check the focus very precisely. It fits into the space for the plate holder with the GG in exactly the same spot where the front of a glass plate or film would be. Do you have anything that looks like that?

 

[awty]

Intriguing images from that lens.Did you have any of the alignment issues @ProbablyPasta is facing when you fitted the lens?
Cutting sheet film in the dark is a bit of a trick - but once I figured out a system it now goes well. Glad you have suceeded too.

The mirror and glass look original and are spot on, if a bit hazy. The lens has only a few millimetres of focus and I usually use it hand held @1000th outdoors, so wind tends to often push the little flowers out of focus, luckily I prefer fuzzy to sharp.
Oh and I cheat by using Ortho film with a red safe light. I do like the aspect ratio similar to 5x7.

 

[ProbablyPasta]

The ground glass should be in register with the ground side down. If it has been replaced with something thicker than the original it might be less bright but, as long as the ground side is down, it should be in register. Ground glass is very simple and there's not much can go wrong with it.
Perhaps post a picture of the ground glass focussing screen assembly here?

@Ian Grant will make you a lovely bright, new focussing screen if you need it. In the meantime cleaning it gently with a soft cloth and alchohol might make a difference.
If you point the camera at a far distant object (infinity), with the aperture open, the bellows closed and the lens board up againt the camera, is it in focus? If not then at what point does that distant object come into focus?.
Mine has an additional GG screen for the back so I can flip up the mirror and check the focus very precisely. It fits into the space for the plate holder with the GG in exactly the same spot where the front of a glass plate or film would be. Do you have anything that looks like that?

That’s the thing, nothing ever pulls into focus, it all remains a blurry mess regardless of if it’s outside/ inside or the location of the lens relative to the camera. The only way i can get any kind of idea of what i’m looking at is by stopping down the lens, with something resembling focus only appearing at the smallest apertures.


I’ll be sure to double check the orientation of the ground glass to see if it’s actually ground side down. Most likely tomorrow, as i’m at my girlfriends house currently. I haven’t rotated it myself, but it could be that whoever last took a screwdriver to this camera re-installed it the wrong way. This wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest, as it’s clear that whomever last worked on this thing was exceptionally sloppy.

i know of the existence of GG screens for the back of the camera, but it did not come with that. Perhaps i could simply slide the top focusing screen into the back of the camera to see if that gives me a little more insight? The only thing the camera came with is lens and one plate holder. I’ll definetely look into getting more plate holders once i’ve fixed her up well enough to actually shoot with : )

 

[awty]

That’s the thing, nothing ever pulls into focus, it all remains a blurry mess regardless of if it’s outside/ inside or the location of the lens relative to the camera. The only way i can get any kind of idea of what i’m looking at is by stopping down the lens, with something resembling focus only appearing at the smallest apertures.


I’ll be sure to double check the orientation of the ground glass to see if it’s actually ground side down. Most likely tomorrow, as i’m at my girlfriends house currently. I haven’t rotated it myself, but it could be that whoever last took a screwdriver to this camera re-installed it the wrong way. This wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest, as it’s clear that whomever last worked on this thing was exceptionally sloppy.

i know of the existence of GG screens for the back of the camera, but it did not come with that. Perhaps i could simply slide the top focusing screen into the back of the camera to see if that gives me a little more insight? The only thing the camera came with is lens and one plate holder. I’ll definetely look into getting more plate holders once i’ve fixed her up well enough to actually shoot with : )

What is the focal length of the lens? It should be around 5"-6"
Does it have front and rear elements?
Can you focus @ infinity. Focus on something a long way away.
Sounds like the focal length of the lens is too long for the bellows....maybe
You can make a ground glass yourself very easily out of gem polishing grit or even valve grinding paste.

 

[Ian Grant]

as promised, here’s a link to the google photos album containing the pictures of the camera, back, shutter mechanism and how it stands now. Needs a new mirror too, but i’ll get to that when i get my next paycheck xD

TP ruby horizontal

16 new items added to shared album

photos.app.goo.gl

I think that camera is a very late model, maybe 1936-38 not long before the Limited company was wound up. Some employees kept trading making roller blind shutters and servicing and repairing cameras up to around 1960.

There's a company in London, Vacuum Coatings Ltd, who I use for re-silvering or new front silvered mirrors. Aluminium is used these days not Silver. There should be a similar company in the Netherlands.

It's probably not the original lens as the back of the lens board isn't painted, also the cameras were sold with recessed lenses.

Ian

 

[ProbablyPasta]

What is the focal length of the lens? It should be around 5"-6"
Does it have front and rear elements?
Can you focus @ infinity. Focus on something a long way away.
Sounds like the focal length of the lens is too long for the bellows....maybe
You can make a ground glass yourself very easily out of gem polishing grit or even valve grinding paste.

im unable to find any kind of meaningful information about this lens online, i’ll be sure to do a focal length test as soon as i can to see if this lens can even work on this camera. Definetely has a front and rear element. I’ve attached photos into the google album link https://photos.app.goo.gl/3agqPAj2nvfp75Pf6 so it’s clear what i’m dealing with, the insanely blurry image of the viewfinder is with the lens at f8, and the darker, clearer image of a lamp is at f64. Both at the same distance and bellows position, hope that can give some insight!

it seems to me from this link i’ve attached that the lens is supposed to be screwed into a shutter, and that, in turn, onto a lens board. could explain the blurriness, since i assume i’m missing some length within the camera to focus


it’s nothing as simple as flipped ground glass unfortunately, since the glass only fits in one way due to a notch on the top left hand side. And even flipping it and having the GG lay halfway in there didn’t yield better results

Powerhouse Collection - Beck Symmetrical Lens for 'Triple Victo' by Thornton-Pickard

Lens, 'Beck Symmetrical Lens' for 'Triple Victo' camera, wood / glass / brass / fabric, Thornton-Pickard, Altrincham, England, c. 1905

collection.powerhouse.com.au

 

[Digital Wendy]

Don't worry, you will figure this out . . . just may take a little longer.

Find the focal length and the minimum and maximum bellows -> plate holder measurements. Then we will know a lot more.

A TP Half-plate camera with a focal plane shutter really is well worth working on. Because it has the shutter you can choose from a wide range of of simple barrel lenses to stick on the front.
If that Beck lens above looks the same as your lens then it may be a longer focal length. A Triple Victo has good long bellows and the length of the shutter box makes very little difference. The 'triple' part means 3 layers of sliders to extend the bellows a long way out.

Beck lenses are often really nice so it will be fun to use when you have it worked out. I have one I like a lot.

Look forward to hearing more news.

 

[ProbablyPasta]

Thank you! i’ll do a focal length test today. When measuring the length inside the camera, should i measure from lens board to mirror, or lens board to back plate?

the to do list as it stands is:
-potentially look at replacing whatever’s responsible for the bottom curtain re-spooling, as it feels weak.
-order 1/4 inch silk ribbons
-install said ribbons into the camera
-order a new mirror
-install said mirror
-focal length test for the lens and camera
-polishing and cleaning of the camera exterior
-clean up focus screen thoroughly
-re install mirror box and shutter assembly

depending on what the focal length test shows, i may look into 3d printing some lens extensions so i’m able to use this lens with this camera. The brass just looks so good!

Most of this stuff i won’t be able to do untill next month when my paycheck comes in. That’s the college student life but will keep y’all updated with my progress ! i’d love to get this camera working and explore the world of plate photography!

 

[Digital Wendy]

Lens board to back plate is the measurement you will need for comparison with the focal length of your lens.
The spring for your bottom curtain might feel inadequate now. That can change when you have cleaned out the sprung axle and set the correct number of winds to reset the shutter. I cannot imagine how you would ever replace that sprung axle so would not suggest taking it apart. Some notes above from me, somewhere, on cleaning it thoroughly.

 

[Ian Grant]

We need to clarify the format, looking at the camera the shutter frame is not as tall as my Quarter plate Ruby cameras shutters. Also I have 2 5x4 Ruby reflex ca,eras and they are quite large, a half plate would be larger still. You wouldn't get a hand around a Half plate Ruby reflex.

So my guess is this is a Quarter plate, or maybe 9x12 Horizontal Ruby.

The TP Beck Symmetrical lens is a typical Rapid Rectilinear, it looks like an 8".

Ian

 

[Bayliss]

Thank you! i’ll do a focal length test today. When measuring the length inside the camera, should i measure from lens board to mirror, or lens board to back plate?

the to do list as it stands is:
-potentially look at replacing whatever’s responsible for the bottom curtain re-spooling, as it feels weak.
-order 1/4 inch silk ribbons
-install said ribbons into the camera
-order a new mirror
-install said mirror
-focal length test for the lens and camera
-polishing and cleaning of the camera exterior
-clean up focus screen thoroughly
-re install mirror box and shutter assembly

depending on what the focal length test shows, i may look into 3d printing some lens extensions so i’m able to use this lens with this camera. The brass just looks so good!

Most of this stuff i won’t be able to do untill next month when my paycheck comes in. That’s the college student life but will keep y’all updated with my progress ! i’d love to get this camera working and explore the world of plate photography!

Any updates? I recently acquired one of these cameras myself - mine takes 2x3 inch plates, which you can get here: https://zebradryplates.com/product/zebra-standard-sixth-plate-dry-plates/

Let me know if you want to know what the focusing screen is meant to look like.

By the way, if you're interested here's an advert for the camera:



And a 1932 review of the camera in The Royal Photographic Society Journal (it's quite funny):

 

[Digital Wendy]

For fans of this thread, I thought you might enjoy seeing this.
I know I said 'never again' but a friend persuaded me to help him with another TP Ruby special. Plus I now have a 4x5 version too which also needs new shutter curtains.
So this week my dining table looks like this.
2 large reflex cameras in pieces, 3 new shutter curtains cut out with stiffeners glued into place and tapes attached.
LOTS of tools - and this does not even show my sewing box which is also open and being raided regularly.

 

[blackandwhitesquare]

Hah, Great posts, great renovations, great skills.
I came across this thread, while looking for some info about shutter repairs.
I had to replace all ribbons in mine, but I can't adjust the speeds.
Can anyone help me with this issue?
My main questions are:
How to tension take up drums (how many turns, or something other unit that I can use)
What is proper slit width for 1/1000s?
Maybe there are some wrongly coupled timing gears, is there any way to adjust them? And what is their proper position.
Thank you n advance

 

[Digital Wendy]

Hello @blackandwhitesquare (and a wave to @ProbablyPasta if you are still interested in this thread)
This next reflex restoration has been put aside while I am busy with work commitments through November. We’ll get back to it in early December.
One thing now. It’s important to keep that big shutter winding knob in place, even when the shutter is not in the camera. You must also mark it so it is fastened with the arrow indicator that shows shutter speed on the correct side. Without this you will get very confused.
I have never truly understood how this speed settings work, but if you put it back together correctly they do!
More later.

 

[blackandwhitesquare]

Hello @blackandwhitesquare (and a wave to @ProbablyPasta if you are still interested in this thread)
This next reflex restoration has been put aside while I am busy with work commitments through November. We’ll get back to it in early December.
One thing now. It’s important to keep that big shutter winding knob in place, even when the shutter is not in the camera. You must also mark it so it is fastened with the arrow indicator that shows shutter speed on the correct side. Without this you will get very confused.
I have never truly understood how this speed settings work, but if you put it back together correctly they do!
More later.

Hello, and thank you for input.
In my situation, there is no way to put the knob wrongly (do you mean the knob with the indicator?)
I saw the reference pics and timing gears seem to be in correct order. I have not dismantled timing gears.
Also, I found information, that the curtains, during traveling up for charged state, should overlap each other about 6 mm, and this is also correct in my case.

I use a Ensign Popular SLR with a 1860's majic lantern lens. The old shutter was all gummed up but I managed to get it working on all speeds with a little TLC.

can you tell more about managing to get it working at all speeds?

 

[blackandwhitesquare]

Hi there,
Some thoughts after today's work on this matter.
I dismantled timing gears, cleaned it and put it back together.
There is no way to make any error while doing this. You can only make it right.
After this, shutter still does not work with proper speeds.
Funny, but the slowest speed on the knob is 1/10s, I could achieve 1/15s, which is weird.
The faster speeds are much slower that indicated but not proportional way.
When take up drums are not tensioned well (still don't know how to make it good) the slower speeds are more accurate, but faster speeds sometimes don't even close second curtain.
There is no repeatability when fire the shutter. The same time set, different results when fired.

Can someone correct my conclusion that springs in take up drums had lost its linear characteristics?

 

[ProbablyPasta]

Hi there,
Some thoughts after today's work on this matter.
I dismantled timing gears, cleaned it and put it back together.
There is no way to make any error while doing this. You can only make it right.
After this, shutter still does not work with proper speeds.
Funny, but the slowest speed on the knob is 1/10s, I could achieve 1/15s, which is weird.
The faster speeds are much slower that indicated but not proportional way.
When take up drums are not tensioned well (still don't know how to make it good) the slower speeds are more accurate, but faster speeds sometimes don't even close second curtain.
There is no repeatability when fire the shutter. The same time set, different results when fired.

Can someone correct my conclusion that springs in take up drums had lost its linear characteristics?

Hiya! (and a hello to @digitalwendy!) I think you might be right in concluding that the springs within the take up drums are worn, and thus no longer functioning linearly. I’ve unfortunately sold off my TP so i can’t exactly look at it hands on for you. Especially since the result is different every time. I believe there’s no specific amount of turns for the take up drums, as long as they hold good tension and act “snappy” so to speak you’ve done it right, shutter speed (at least on mine) is determined entirely by tape length. Hope this helps a little. You could look into taking the drums out,then giving them a good cleaning and lubing so the drum spins smooth resulting in less strain. Good luck with your repair!!

 

[blackandwhitesquare]

thanks for your input. will try replace the springs, but not in near futire (more projects to go)

 

[Ohliuw]

That camera's more like my 6x9 Ruby reflex, as it has a rotating back.

I have plenty of the correct shutter cloth as I routinely restore TP roller blind shutters, something I've been doing for over 15 years. I also supply one of the leading US restorers, he uses it for 7x5 Portrait Graphics, they have a shutter curtain around 60" long. I also have a large roll of the Japanese rubberised silk shutter cloth which is only suitable for 35mm & MF cameras, it lacks dimensional stability wider than 6cm.

That f2.5 TTH Cooke lens is worth a lot of money they are very rare, it's faster than the CZJ f2.7 165mm Tessar, or the f2.9 Dallmeyer, you rotate the rim of the lens to change aperture. It's likely the original lens.

Ian

Can you PM me if you still have fabric and ribbon - I am looking to rebuild my Thornton Pickard. Thanks

 

[Ian Grant]

PM sent

Ian