Recirculating print washer

[dswiger]

Phase one. Pump to circulate water. Next step set up a dump and refill setup. Idea is to run 3 , 5 gallon washes rather than 1 gallon a minute for 45 minutes, Thoughts? Dump water goes to pre rinse prints before putting in washer. Mag drive pump from a Noritsu processor. Kinda thinking a gas burst agitation might be cool too.
View attachment 179822

Do you have the specs on that water pump?
Gallons per hour & such
Thanks

 

[mshchem]

Do you have the specs on that water pump?
Gallons per hour & such
Thanks

No I don't. But these Japanese mag drive pumps, I think mine can run at 17 liters a minute. They're used in minilab machines. You see all kind of these pumps on ebay

 

[Sirius Glass]

I never use a washer for RC paper. This is just for fiber base. I agree with (most) of what your getting at here. I've never had a print go bad over 50 years either, and I rarely use these washers because they take so darn much water.
Best Mike

Since I have my print washer always set up, I was RC paper and fiber paper. The RC paper gets a much shorter wash.

 

[wyofilm]

The old Kodak books by CEK Mees state that with each change of water you remove something like 90% of the hypo.

With 3x 5gal water changes and using your 90% clear rate per wash you would be at 0.1% of original hypo concentation. Is that sufficient for you?

I don't know how CEK Mees arrived at his 90% because of the slow release of hypo from paper. Assuming you reached equilibrium of hypo concentration in the bath vs concentration in the paper, I would think 3 x 5 gal would do it. The volume of liquid in each sheet of paper is very small compared to 5 gal. So I think how long you let the system stand between dumps is the most important variable.

 

[mshchem]

With 3x 5gal water changes and using your 90% clear rate per wash you would be at 0.1% of original hypo concentation. Is that sufficient for you?

I don't know how CEK Mees arrived at his 90% because of the slow release of hypo from paper. Assuming you reached equilibrium of hypo concentration in the bath vs concentration in the paper, I would think 3 x 5 gal would do it. The volume of liquid in each sheet of paper is very small compared to 5 gal. So I think how long you let the system stand between dumps is the most important variable.

I agree. Reasonable temperature, flow of water over the paper, the equations for diffusion are out there. If you have 40 lbs of water and a 0.1g of hypo per sheet at the beginning, when those come to equilibrium. These truths are self evident.

 

[ParkerSmithPhoto]

Phase one. Pump to circulate water. Next step set up a dump and refill setup. Idea is to run 3 , 5 gallon washes rather than 1 gallon a minute for 45 minutes, Thoughts? Dump water goes to pre rinse prints before putting in washer. Mag drive pump from a Noritsu processor. Kinda thinking a gas burst agitation might be cool too.
View attachment 179822

I have had one of these D&V print washers on the shelf for years and am finally getting around to using it for 16x20. I was under the assumption that it drained from the bottom. Are you using the bottom drain to force water back in to re-circulate?

 

[mshchem]

I have had one of these D&V print washers on the shelf for years and am finally getting around to using it for 16x20. I was under the assumption that it drained from the bottom. Are you using the bottom drain to force water back in to re-circulate?

The overflow has a baffle that leads to the bottom. So in regular operation water comes in the top, is forced through the jets I each slot. The way I have this plumbed is the drain plug, that is used to drain the washer, this is the feed for the pump. The pump takes this water and pushes the water through the jets.

This is the same path the water takes when used normally.

These washers, no matter who made them, only work, if you crank the water flow. I have picked up 3 different washers over the years. If I used 1 gallon a minute, even on this small washer, the flow was so low that air bells would form on the surface of the print. Not good.

Gizmos

 

[Maris]

Day before yesterday I washed a batch of 24 fibre based 8x10s in a Paterson Major Print Washer for 45 minutes with constant water flow and constant agitation. Result was a perfect archival wash as usual.

The 100 litres of water used cost me 25 cents at the current rates from the local water supplier. The 24 prints in the washer cost me nearly $50 in materials and chemistry. Sure, there is a twinge of eco-guilt in watching that water go down the drain but the water is by far the cheapest part of the process. And the grand weather cycle will bring the water back eventually but the prints are a one way trip.

 

[mshchem]

Day before yesterday I washed a batch of 24 fibre based 8x10s in a Paterson Major Print Washer for 45 minutes with constant water flow and constant agitation. Result was a perfect archival wash as usual.

The 100 litres of water used cost me 25 cents at the current rates from the local water supplier. The 24 prints in the washer cost me nearly $50 in materials and chemistry. Sure, there is a twinge of eco-guilt in watching that water go down the drain but the water is by far the cheapest part of the process. And the grand weather cycle will bring the water back eventually but the prints are a one way trip.

How much water flow is required to get the piston to pump the basket back and forth? I'm in a area where the tap water is always below 20°C, half the year it's around 4 or 5°C. That's too cold for a good wash. The Paterson washers have a nice idea, but the only one that I've seen in use required quite a bit of water flow to get the piston going.
Print wash water could be used for almost everything except drinking.

I'm in a place where water is cheap, but I just can't stand to waste it.

 

[wyofilm]

Can a float system be set whereby a slow drain drops the water level, which when low enough activates the float vavle? Once refilled the valve cuts off, slowly empties, again activating the pump. Repeat for as long as one want to wash the prints. Would such a system help? Mind you I've never had a print washer so I might be talking out my ...

 

[Sirius Glass]

Can a float system be set whereby a slow drain drops the water level, which when low enough activates the float vavle? Once refilled the valve cuts off, slowly empties, again activating the pump. Repeat for as long as one want to wash the prints. Would such a system help? Mind you I've never had a print washer so I might be talking out my ...

Limit switches, if you can implement them, are a good way to go. That is what is used in control systems.

 

[mshchem]

I've always thought a toilet tank would make a fill and dump washer.
There's a billion different ways to do it.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I have two print washers. One for 20x24, and the other for 11x14. They are useful if you mass produce prints, but I don't. They're just sitting, gathering dust...Time to give them away...

 

[mshchem]

I have two print washers. One for 20x24, and the other for 11x14. They are useful if you mass produce prints, but I don't. They're just sitting, gathering dust...Time to give them away...

Yep, I use my baby 8x10 model instead of the jumbos.

 

[MattKing]

I have two print washers. One for 20x24, and the other for 11x14. They are useful if you mass produce prints, but I don't. They're just sitting, gathering dust...Time to give them away...

As soon as you give them away .....

 

[ChristopherCoy]

I have two print washers. One for 20x24, and the other for 11x14. They are useful if you mass produce prints, but I don't. They're just sitting, gathering dust...Time to give them away...

I can use the 11x14!!! I'm doing. A similar set up in a temporary darkroom.

 

[dswiger]

No I don't. But these Japanese mag drive pumps, I think mine can run at 17 liters a minute. They're used in minilab machines. You see all kind of these pumps on ebay

Thanks for the response. Looking at a couple of them on Ebay now

 

[mshchem]

Some pumps are DC, I have one of these I power it with a Dell computer power supply. Some are 100 V AC, Japan standard. I have a huge Variac (enormous dimmer) that I use to bring US voltage down to 100V. Some Internet gurus say that the US AC won't hurt the 100 V power but I don't take the chance.

 

[dswiger]

No I don't. But these Japanese mag drive pumps, I think mine can run at 17 liters a minute. They're used in minilab machines. You see all kind of these pumps on ebay

Got my pumps. Trying to figure out the three wire connector. Do you recall which pair you used for power?
Thanks

 

[mshchem]

Got my pumps. Trying to figure out the three wire connector. Do you recall which pair you used for power?
Thanks

Are they AC 100V, DC??

 

[dswiger]

Are they AC 100V, DC??

These are 24v DC.
I think I figured it out.
Looked online for some generic mag pumps and it noted there were three wires.
There were the same as mine.

Positive - RED
Negative - BLACK
Speed control - WHITE.

The doc also mentioned that if you don't need speed control, you just tie the WHITE wire to the 24V.
If you want speed control, its a 0 - 5V control voltage

I have enough to do a run-check tomorrow

Thanks for responding

 

[mshchem]

These are 24v DC.
I think I figured it out.
Looked online for some generic mag pumps and it noted there were three wires.
There were the same as mine.

Positive - RED
Negative - BLACK
Speed control - WHITE.

The doc also mentioned that if you don't need speed control, you just tie the WHITE wire to the 24V.
If you want speed control, its a 0 - 5V control voltage

I have enough to do a run-check tomorrow

Thanks for responding

I would need to go down and look. But I think you've got it right. I didn't do anything with the white wire. Let us know how you come out, I just cobbled mine together. When I change water (not sure if it's really necessary ) I open the drain on the washer, and in addition I use a 1/2 inch id vinyl hose as a syphon to empty quick. Then I refill with a couple plastic buckets I've filled with room temperature water. I think holding the water temperature around 20°C is important. Too cold you don't have adequate washing, too warm and the emulsion gets plump and sticky.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Why not something like this? 120v, submersible, no wiring, just plug it into an outlet. Some of them even have adjustable flow rates.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07ZNPZWMR/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_YHDYH8ZFHRZM9WY6XZ63

 

[Renato Tonelli]

Yep, I use my baby 8x10 model instead of the jumbos.

Where did you find the 8x10 print washer? Just curious.

 

[mshchem]

Where did you find the 8x10 print washer? Just curious.

Dunwright and Vogel, over 20 years ago. 12 8x10s or you can was 6 11 x 14 s if you gently hang the print over the divider so you are using two slots for each 11 X14