Recant: D-76 does not last forever

[Bill Burk]

There are a lot of posts here where I claim D-76 lasts forever.

But lately I have been getting lower contrast results than I aimed for.

So I was wrong and I have to recant.

I think my flexibility always covered up the loss in activity that occurs over time. I was always happy to get “anything that gives me a negative I can print on Grade 2 or Grade 3”.

I will follow up with historical data. I have been keeping track of when I mixed developer. So I should be able to give good guidelines.

Oh, you can still use it forever. No matter how old it was I still have only gotten one or two completely ruined rolls in my life. Just be ready for the occasional 30% less contrast than you aimed for. You might need Grade 3 when you aimed for Grade 2.

I finally had a situation where I really wanted to print on Grade 2 but didn’t get the contrast I wanted. So this time I noticed.

 

[MatthewDunn]

This is why I consider this gentleman to be the most trusted resource on this site...hands down, far and away.

 

[ruilourosa]

Posts...

 

[takilmaboxer]

I routinely used it for 3 months, and even went as far as 6. Its aging was particularly noticeable with T grain films.
Nowadays I use either 1 -shot or D23 freshly mixed, but only enough for a few rolls.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

That's nice, Bill, thanks.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I remember a Spanish teacher once did a good long test on D-76: its life and PH variation... A one year test.
It was mixed with distilled water and divided into several amber glass bottles filled to the brim: D-76 showed a very small amount of PH change, both up and down a few times through that year period, but the changes were not as relevant as to develop film to a different degree. It seems, though, that when it's left in half empty bottles it degrades quickly, even with small amounts of air.
Personally, I use distilled water and amber glass botles totally full too, and I have never found my D-76 going stronger or weaker, and I use it with confidence up to 12-15 months after mix.
Bill's case sounds interesting: I'm sure he'll find out the reason or reasons.

 

[Horatio]

I remember a Spanish teacher once did a good long test on D-76: its life and PH variation... A one year test.
It was mixed with distilled water and divided into several amber glass bottles filled to the brim: D-76 showed a very small amount of PH change, both up and down a few times through that year period, but the changes were not as relevant as to develop film to a different degree. It seems, though, that when it's left in half empty bottles it degrades quickly, even with small amounts of air.
Personally, I use distilled water and amber glass botles totally full too, and I have never found my D-76 going stronger or weaker, and I use it with confidence up to 12-15 months after mix.
Bill's case sounds interesting: I'm sure he'll find out the reason or reasons.

How many rolls are you processing in that 12-15 month period?

 

[Bill Burk]

Worst day in the darkroom is better than the best day at work…

Last night I had so many mishaps that I don’t have numbers on what I got. Assuming D-76 mixed 13-DEC-2020 (same mix that failed me) was less active and developed for 16 minutes instead of the usual 13:30.

The EG&G has a set of “radio buttons” that you use to pick 1/100th 1/1,000th or 1/10,000th second exposure. I usually use 1/100th but in fact there was no button pressed so I got no exposure at all).

But the two rolls of film sure looked like 16 minutes’ worth of contrast. Almost 3.0 in some skies, near 2.0 in some normal highlights. I finally got some negatives to print on my Grade 2 Galerie that Guillaume Zuili sent me.

I reached for the fixer but only had one ounce, luckily I picked up a bottle at Kaufmann’s Camera earlier in the day.

I put the washing stand in the sink and it tilted and wobbled. A foot had broken off. So I removed the rusty deck screws and replaced them. Not solid but enough to serve temporarily until I can do a proper rebuild.

Back to the revelation. I think I have a couple likely culprits for unexpected low contrast.

1. Temperature difference between the tank and the water bath.

2. Second half of a quart bottle.

I use a compensating timer and noted the water bath the day I got low contrast, was 72-degrees F (could have been 74). I didn’t note the ambient temperature (could have been 65.

I may not have given enough time for the D-76 1:1 to come up to temp.

In that scenario the compensated time would have been 11:30 (time for about 0.5 CI if developer was really 68-degrees F and I got 0.5 CI) instead of the 15:30 I had dialed in.


Then another possible factor. I think it was the second half of the bottle. I will hunt for my notes about when I developed film the time before.

In distant past I would discard a second half of D-76 when I knew it had been sitting around a long time. In recent past my confidence in D-76 led me to just use it, second half, last quarter. Didn’t pay attention because I never noticed an issue.

In the low contrast run, that half bottle might have been sitting around a couple months.

It’s not as bad as I thought.

I will note the bottle state (fresh/half). And I will watch that water temp is close to tank temp.

I’m getting good results now so will keep going with a little more attention to temperature and bottle.

 

[Bill Burk]

Ok with all the attention to detail, 13:30 target for 0.62 CI came in at 0.45 CI. This doesn’t ruin the negatives. But it’s looking like this D-76 has lost activity since it had been mixed 12-DEC-2020.

I am fixing the PM run and this time I set the timer to 15:00 target hoping for 0.62 again. The 69.8-degrees F actual temp caused the real elapsed time to be 13:30.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

How many rolls are you processing in that 12-15 month period?

A lot less than the gallon's capacity... When my D-76 is older than a year, I throw it away, and mix a new bag. Once I was using Rodinal and Microphen only, for some months, depending on film and light, and one day I saw my D-76 was 15 months old, so before dumping it I decided to test if it was fine... I did a roll of tests: different lenses and f-stops, and yellow/orange filters, and development was normal. Not weak, not strong.
D-76 had been mixed with distilled water, and since mixing, the totally full small amber glass bottles had never been opened, of course.

 

[mshchem]

A lot less than the gallon's capacity... When my D-76 is older than a year, I throw it away, and mix a new bag. Once I was using Rodinal and Microphen only, for some months, depending on film and light, and one day I saw my D-76 was 15 months old, so before dumping it I decided to test if it was fine... I did a roll of tests: different lenses and f-stops, and yellow/orange filters, and development was normal. Not weak, not strong.
D-76 had been mixed with distilled water, and since mixing, the totally full small amber glass bottles had never been opened, of course.

Nothing better than amber glass, I used to have a bunch, got tossed in a move. The poly cone (PE) seal, insert in a black phenolic cap works great.
I use a lot of plastic bottles, but glass is great.
I don't retain any developer or fixer in less than full bottles. I use a lot of XTOL, never been burned by a full bottle. Fixer ppt sulfur with air.

 

[gone]

You should try the New & Improved Kodak D76. Mine was bad right out of the package, which when you think about it, saved me a lot of time and trouble waiting for it to go bad.

Before I swore off Big Yeller, I never got more than a month or two from a mixed gallon, even when kept at good temps and away from light. If I'd have been shooting more film that wouldn't have been a problem, but like most of us, I had different developers for different films, and by the time I got back to the Tri-X/D76 cycle it had gone off. There was never any sign, you didn't know it had gone off until you developed it. Well, this is ancient history, we know by now this stuff will certainly go bad. Great all purpose developer for sure. I use the D76 clones and Clayton F76 now, and the negs look pretty much like they did in D76.

 

[Bill Burk]

I hit the ASA parameters for Double-X 5222 at 15 minutes in D-76 1:1 this afternoon. Speed is 250.

The same run I hit higher than ASA for TMY 2. Speed is 400. It may actually be the ASA parameters, the test exposures were on the edge so the sprockets gave the patches slightly higher densities for some readings.

So just 15 minutes vs my usual 13:30.

 

[hadeer]

Hi, I avoid possible problems by mixing the required volume of working solution from the raw chemicals for development fot one or two films just before use. Always gave me constant results. The chemicals I bought between 4 and 10 years ago, they are kept in plastic containers. All you need is a scale that permits weighing with a1/10 th gram precision. This works fine for me because I don't develop 10 films each day of course.

 

[Horatio]

A lot less than the gallon's capacity... When my D-76 is older than a year, I throw it away, and mix a new bag. Once I was using Rodinal and Microphen only, for some months, depending on film and light, and one day I saw my D-76 was 15 months old, so before dumping it I decided to test if it was fine... I did a roll of tests: different lenses and f-stops, and yellow/orange filters, and development was normal. Not weak, not strong.
D-76 had been mixed with distilled water, and since mixing, the totally full small amber glass bottles had never been opened, of course.

Thanks. My D76 is pushing six months since mixing. Mine was made with tap water and stored in a brown bottle, then sat unused a few weeks. I do a lot of short rolls, and I’ve processed a dozen so far. I should get a few more rolls from it. Processed a short roll from a camera test yesterday that turned out well.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

There are a lot of posts here where I claim D-76 lasts forever.

But lately I have been getting lower contrast results than I aimed for.

So I was wrong and I have to recant.

I think my flexibility always covered up the loss in activity that occurs over time. I was always happy to get “anything that gives me a negative I can print on Grade 2 or Grade 3”.

I will follow up with historical data. I have been keeping track of when I mixed developer. So I should be able to give good guidelines.

Oh, you can still use it forever. No matter how old it was I still have only gotten one or two completely ruined rolls in my life. Just be ready for the occasional 30% less contrast than you aimed for. You might need Grade 3 when you aimed for Grade 2.

I finally had a situation where I really wanted to print on Grade 2 but didn’t get the contrast I wanted. So this time I noticed.

D76 is bestused one-shot o be consistent, I also will get stronger over time as the pH increases while it sits.D76H(mostly self-brew) as a buffer to prevent that. Using D76 one-shot and 1+1 keeps things sufficiently consistent 'til it's gone. D72(Dektol)on the therhand,lasts a long time!

 

[Ian Grant]

You get very constent results using D76/ID-11 replenished, the issue now is you need to mix your own from raw chemicals. However it's not the best developer of its type for T garain and similar films Xtol gives fine grain, better sharpness and better shadow deatial and is self replenishing and doesn't require a dedicated replenisher.

Ian

 

[cliveh]

Bill, are you talking about D76 stock solution or a water ratio mix?

 

[Bill Burk]

D-76 1:1 where my usual nominal time is 13:30 which “hits” ASA parameters for me when it’s fresh.

I have from time to time notes that I fell short of my aim. So I still want to present the data for this discussion.

Last night I hit ASA parameters for Double-X and curve says I overshot ASA slightly for TMY-2 at 15:00 nominal (13:37 real time because the developer was 69.8-degrees F). Sensitometry exposures were near the sprockets which can explain the odd curve shape (long story but I put an ND 0.6 filter over half the low exposure region which put some test patches near the sprockets where they were “more” developed).

 

[cliveh]

If you are talking about D76 at 1:1 then it has a reduced shelf life. D76 stock solution will be good for two or three years,

 

[Bill Burk]

If you are talking about D76 at 1:1 then it has a reduced shelf life. D76 stock solution will be good for two or three years,

D-76 bottled in quarts, mixed to 1:1 immediately before use.

Tonight I found the dial thermometer off by 2 degrees F. I wasn’t timing by it so that’s not critical. The probe and my Paterson glass thermometer agree well

Water running at 68.00 degrees tonight, 15 minutes real and compensating times agreed.

That’s it for the old D-76 , next I will be using a fresh batch. The packages are old enough they won’t be the brown stuff.

I will double check my times again in fresh and see if I am back to 13:30 for ASA parameters for TMY-2

 

[RalphLambrecht]

If you are talking about D76 at 1:1 then it has a reduced shelf life. D76 stock solution will be good for two or three years,

 

[Ian Grant]

If you are talking about D76 at 1:1 then it has a reduced shelf life. D76 stock solution will be good for two or three years,

Used 1+1 D76/ID-11 is on a one use basis so how does that reduce the shelf life of the stock solution, And yes unused D76 stock solution will have a much longer shelf life when mixed than used and or replenished D76which has a useable life of around 6 to nine months.

Ian

 

[Pat Erson]

"You should try the New & Improved Kodak D76. Mine was bad right out of the package, which when you think about it, saved me a lot of time and trouble waiting for it to go bad".

Post of the week!!!
Thanks for the laughs!

 

[Alan Johnson]

If using plastic bottles examine them for the codes , posts 2 and 20 here:
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