Question about HC 110 in new, 1litre packaging in USA

[Gerald C Koch]

Gerald, as an aside, I'm wondering about the chemistry of including both HQ and Catechol (albeit a very small amount of Catechol relative to HQ) with Phenidone. We typically consider HC-110 to be a PQ developer, and I supppose from a practical perspective it is, but why the addition of a small amount of Catechol which is similar to HQ?

A good question for which I have no answer. This puzzled me too as well as the change to Phenidone B from the Dimezone-S listed in the HC-110 applicable patent.

 

[cmacd123]

I'm just ticked that that B&H won't ship it in the new larger bottle.

ME too. when the rumor was that the old version was discontinued, I oordered SEVEARL bottles from B&H and they all came in one box. Now they won't ship even a single bottle. That leaves me with trying to get Henry's to bring it in for me. Fortunately I am still working on those old bottles from B&H and A few more from Henry's, (and I think one from Freestyle) so I don't need any right away.

 

[adelorenzo]

ME too. when the rumor was that the old version was discontinued, I oordered SEVEARL bottles from B&H and they all came in one box. Now they won't ship even a single bottle. That leaves me with trying to get Henry's to bring it in for me. Fortunately I am still working on those old bottles from B&H and A few more from Henry's, (and I think one from Freestyle) so I don't need any right away.

It's a ways across the country but Beau Photo in Vancouver will ship it, that's where I get all of my chemicals.

Also argentix.ca is an APUG sponsor so you could also check with them although they don't show HC-110 on their website.

 

[adelorenzo]

Well here it is straight from Kodak: There is no difference between the formula in the new and old bottles.

 

[timor]

They can say, whatever they want, it doen't work the same way as before. I have very precisely calibrated system with HC110 used for 3 years now. New HC110 is weaker. My third attempt is a success, sort of, but I had to increase quantity from 6ml to 7.5ml. Negative looks like developed in Tmax dev. Still have to check it under the enlarger for grain, sharpness and local contrast. It still might be a very useful developer. Tests with oxidation shows better resistance to it, than the old one. Used dev. left in the glass (small quantity) after two days shows light change of color to brown. Glass with more of the solution (10x more) no change so far. Original HC110 was dark brown after 24 hours.

 

[timor]

How exactly do you know any of these things you've said are true?

Question to me ? I can assure you, that all, what I am saying are my truthful observations from what I am experiencing with the "new package" HC110.

 

[timor]

Let say method is "organoleptic". Test and observation. It is not that hard to spot an under developed negative coming out from the proven system. This will indicate a change and the only change is HC110 from a different manufacturer.

 

[Alex Muir]

I have looked at an old 1litre bottle purchased in the UK around 1997. I compared it to a new 1 litre bottle, expiry 2015. The capacity of 4x 135/120 per litre is on both. The dilution guide is the same, as is agitation. Storage is also the same. Recommended development times, however, are all different. Looking at dil B at 20c, Tri-X has old time 7.5, new 3.75. Plus-X has old 5, new 3.5. Tmax 100 has old 7, new 6. Tmax 400 has old 6, new 5.5. And Tmax 3200 old11.5, new10.5. All times are minutes and quoted for same EI. The liquid is the full strength version where Dil B is 1+31. Changes in times could be down to changes in the various emulsions? If not, it would look like the new version is stronger than the old. My old bottle is made in France, and the new one in Germany. The old one only lists 3 chemicals on the basis that they are
hazardous. The new label lists a lot more. Phenidone is not mentioned by that name on either. I read somewhere that a potential problem with ageing developers is that they can become more active. I cannot recall where I saw this, but it was one reason I stopped using the old bottle of HC110. It still works, but I wasn't sure I would get consistent results.
Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[37th Exposure]

Try Ilfotec HC or Tetenal Neopress HC? Same stuff? Stronger?

They can say, whatever they want, it doen't work the same way as before. I have very precisely calibrated system with HC110 used for 3 years now. New HC110 is weaker. My third attempt is a success, sort of, but I had to increase quantity from 6ml to 7.5ml. Negative looks like developed in Tmax dev. Still have to check it under the enlarger for grain, sharpness and local contrast. It still might be a very useful developer. Tests with oxidation shows better resistance to it, than the old one. Used dev. left in the glass (small quantity) after two days shows light change of color to brown. Glass with more of the solution (10x more) no change so far. Original HC110 was dark brown after 24 hours.

The stated capacity on the new one litre size is 4 rolls per litre dilution B while I have a previous Kodak data sheet for the old American version that stated 5. The other capacities are also lower for the other dilutions, on the new bottle (dilution A is now down to 8 rolls from 10 for instance). Again, this could be just a simple revision with nothing to do with formula as another reader has already stated. It remains to see if anyone else is finding the new stuff to be watered down. I have always used more than the minimum per roll so that maybe why I have yet to see any difference, or I am just too dumb to notice.

On a tangent, have you considered Ilford Ilfotec HC or Tetenal Neopress HC? I believe the formulae are similar to HC-110. Their technical data still indicate 10 rolls 1+15 (aka. Dilution A) and 5 rolls 1+31 (aka. Dilution B). That should work out to minimum 7.5ml per roll 135-36 or 120. I can only vouch for the Ilford having used it many years ago. I am thinking of trying the Tetenal version. If HC-110 really is watered down, it might have to be Ilford or Tetenal from now on. Ilford costs about 10USD more per bottle but if it is stronger than what you pay is what you get. The Tetenal sells for about the same as HC-110. Freestyle and BH prices.

 

[timor]

I read somewhere that a potential problem with ageing developers is that they can become more active. I cannot recall where I saw this, but it was one reason I stopped using the old bottle of HC110. It still works, but I wasn't sure I would get consistent results.
Alex

That bad news. The one thing about HC110 is, it supposed to be stable across long span of time.

 

[37th Exposure]

ME too. when the rumor was that the old version was discontinued, I oordered SEVEARL bottles from B&H and they all came in one box. Now they won't ship even a single bottle. That leaves me with trying to get Henry's to bring it in for me. Fortunately I am still working on those old bottles from B&H and A few more from Henry's, (and I think one from Freestyle) so I don't need any right away.

Freestyle will, at least within the USA.

 

[DWThomas]

(...)Recommended development times, however, are all different. Looking at dil B at 20c, Tri-X has old time 7.5, new 3.75. Plus-X has old 5, new 3.5. Tmax 100 has old 7, new 6. Tmax 400 has old 6, new 5.5. And Tmax 3200 old11.5, new10.5. All times are minutes and quoted for same EI. The liquid is the full strength version where Dil B is 1+31. Changes in times could be down to changes in the various emulsions? If not, it would look like the new version is stronger than the old. My old bottle is made in France, and the new one in Germany. (...)

I seem to recall there were some changes in Kodak's instructions for Tri-X somewhere back a ways that many people thought were wrong, so I fear even that could be rearing its ugly head; some thought they used the wrong dilution but would not admit it. Obviously I shall have to test a bit before I commit anything important to the new soup.

 

[pdeeh]

the new soup

hang on ... one person has stated their belief that something seems to have changed ... what new soup?

 

[timor]

On a tangent, have you considered Ilford Ilfotec HC or Tetenal Neopress HC? I believe the formulae are similar to HC-110.

Tetenal HC will be not shipped to Canada, Ilfotec HC I can get here. LegacyPro has also a version of HC110 called L110. There are some other options, but is not the point. My question was if anyone noticed any differences between the old, Rochester made and the new, Tetenal made, HC110 as I did. I am happy with my today's work, neg looks good, very good. But this is just first step to rework the whole system. I am not a chemist nor physicist, just in the past I licked some biochemistry. From that I know, that even small change in the system may bring change. Ingredient supposedly the same, yet from different source, is not the same. At the end, who knows, maybe the glycol used by Tetenal mixed with my tap water may inhibit the developing action to some extend (that's only an example). To check this I bought today a bottle of distilled water, Tomorrow I will know.

 

[timor]

Obviously I shall have to test a bit before I commit anything important to the new soup.

Good, that's my point. I keep Tetenal in the highest esteem, but it is different company, plant, people, suppliers. Remember ADOX trying to copy Agfa APX 400 ? Same people, same machines and failure to produce the same. However I believe that what they got is still high quality, workable product.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The LegacyPro stuff is nowhere near HC-110 in its formulation. Not saying its a bad developer just not a similar product. There is only one HC-110 and the others something else. Always look at the MSDS when comparing products.

 

[timor]

The LegacyPro stuff is nowhere near HC-110 in its formulation. Not saying its a bad developer just not a similar product. There is only one HC-110 and the others something else. Always look at the MSDS when comparing products.

Yes, you are so right. Yet Legacy is saying: "with the same or similar formulations as Kodak chemicals". Interesting, isn't it. I guess in marketing one can stretch the reality a bit, but they can't in MSDS.

 

[subsole]

I've used the "new" HC-110 with Tri-x and HP5 and didn't notice any difference in contrast,shadow detail or development times.
It seems to be a bit more fluid than the old one.

Cheers
Wolfgang

 

[Roger Cole]

There's lots of stuff that B&H won't ship that nearly everyone else will. I seem to recall that they posted on here claiming some regs imposed after a cargo air crash. But I'm quite sure other places aren't violating shipping regs constantly. All the stuff I get from Freestyle that's labeled hazardous has a big clear ORM-D label on it which, if they were violating regs, would be a sign saying "open me, I may not be complying with regs!" I'm not buying B&H's line on this, but I AM buying my chems elsewhere.

 

[Red Tractors]

I seem to recall there were some changes in Kodak's instructions for Tri-X somewhere back a ways that many people thought were wrong, so I fear even that could be rearing its ugly head; some thought they used the wrong dilution but would not admit it. Obviously I shall have to test a bit before I commit anything important to the new soup.

Kodak changed the times for Tri-X in HC-110. At the last revision of the film. Dillution B at *68f is now supposed to be around 3-1/2 minutes, which I found to be far too short. I looked up the chart for the older form of Tri-X and used that. They also gave as an "*" saying that times shorter than five minutes might give unsatisfactory results.

I haven't tried the "new" HC-110 yet, so I have no base to comment from there.

 

[timor]

I've used the "new" HC-110 with Tri-x and HP5 and didn't notice any difference in contrast,shadow detail or development times.
It seems to be a bit more fluid than the old one.

Cheers
Wolfgang

Wolfgang, can you buy US version of HC110 in Europe ? It is now the same concentration here and there ?

 

[StoneNYC]

There's lots of stuff that B&H won't ship that nearly everyone else will. I seem to recall that they posted on here claiming some regs imposed after a cargo air crash. But I'm quite sure other places aren't violating shipping regs constantly. All the stuff I get from Freestyle that's labeled hazardous has a big clear ORM-D label on it which, if they were violating regs, would be a sign saying "open me, I may not be complying with regs!" I'm not buying B&H's line on this, but I AM buying my chems elsewhere.

Oh now I remember! It has nothing to do with the cargo planes etc., it has to do with the bridges, which actually makes sense, there are certain things you cannot ship and send it through the bridge and tunnel system because it's not allowed, and if they got caught doing it they would be shut down, it's a smart business move for them to follow the laws. Stuff is brought in on a boat and then installed into the store, but they can't ship it outside of New York unless they have a separate sorting facility where they could actually store stuff outside of the city and ship it from there as a way to avoid the bridge and tunnel rules. It sounds like BS unless you've actually been in New York City on a regular basis, they're very strict about what goes through those tunnels these days because of all of the "bad people" and it's not a crock, they pull trucks over all the time for inspection etc. Anyway thought I would comment to say it wasn't all BS, moving on...

 

[timor]

Oh now I remember! It has nothing to do with the cargo planes etc., it has to do with the bridges, which actually makes sense, there are certain things you cannot ship and send it through the bridge and tunnel system because it's not allowed, and if they got caught doing it they would be shut down, it's a smart business move for them to follow the laws. Stuff is brought in on a boat and then installed into the store, but they can't ship it outside of New York unless they have a separate sorting facility where they could actually store stuff outside of the city and ship it from there as a way to avoid the bridge and tunnel rules. It sounds like BS unless you've actually been in New York City on a regular basis, they're very strict about what goes through those tunnels these days because of all of the "bad people" and it's not a crock, they pull trucks over all the time for inspection etc. Anyway thought I would comment to say it wasn't all BS, moving on...

And what's the difference between NYC and the rest of the world ? Bridges and tunnels are everywhere, so do "bad people". This law sounds like a hysteria or... worst.

 

[StoneNYC]

And what's the difference between NYC and the rest of the world ? Bridges and tunnels are everywhere, so do "bad people". This law sounds like a hysteria or... worst.

Have you ever been to NY or looked at a map? Lol, it's an island... The ONLY access is through bridge and tunnel... So if that infrastructure were damaged, people are literally stuck there, can you imagine the chaos, if you think the streets smell now, wait till the garbage trucks can't get off the island... No food (many NY'ers exclusively eat out, they don't stick food in fridges or pantries) so the restaurants would have no food either as their shipments couldn't get there, they don't keep stock they get deliveries day to day, it's an insane place and it's unimaginable that it's even able to function at all, but it does... But take away the infrastructure and it's chaos.

So yea, it's different from other places with bridges....

 

[timor]

Is this law pre 9/11 ?