Question about HC 110 in new, 1litre packaging in USA

[StoneNYC]

Is this law pre 9/11 ?

Not to the extreme it is today, 9/11 was when it really got strict as far as I know. But there have always been regulations for the bridges and tunnels that differ from other places as far as I know.

 

[timor]

Just wonder how stuff like a fuel gets to the gas stations and how a few bottles of developer can damage or destroy bridge.

 

[pentaxuser]

Just wonder how stuff like a fuel gets to the gas stations and how a few bottles of developer can damage or destroy bridge.

This would seem to be a good point unless gas for instance is delivered by boat. I wonder what the answer to your question would be from those in authority?

Anyone else from New York care to comment?

pentaxuser

 

[StoneNYC]

This would seem to be a good point unless gas for instance is delivered by boat. I wonder what the answer to your question would be from those in authority?

Anyone else from New York care to comment?

pentaxuser

Yea, boat...

It's also $5/gallon, no one but taxi/limo drivers and rich people fill up in the city... Hah!

 

[winger]

Oh now I remember! It has nothing to do with the cargo planes etc., it has to do with the bridges, which actually makes sense, there are certain things you cannot ship and send it through the bridge and tunnel system because it's not allowed, and if they got caught doing it they would be shut down, it's a smart business move for them to follow the laws. Stuff is brought in on a boat and then installed into the store, but they can't ship it outside of New York unless they have a separate sorting facility where they could actually store stuff outside of the city and ship it from there as a way to avoid the bridge and tunnel rules. It sounds like BS unless you've actually been in New York City on a regular basis, they're very strict about what goes through those tunnels these days because of all of the "bad people" and it's not a crock, they pull trucks over all the time for inspection etc. Anyway thought I would comment to say it wasn't all BS, moving on...

As I recall (because I asked someone at Freestyle or B&H back when I couldn't get B&H to send stop bath), it's because there are more regulations and a special training class you have to do if you're going to ship certain chemicals. Stop bath (as a liquid) is one, I'm sure anything that shows up marked ORM-D is on that list. B&H didn't want to send every single person in their shipping department to the class, so stopped shipping those items. Freestyle (being smaller and concentrating more on photography) did send people to the class. Hence, Freestyle will ship things that B&H won't.

It has nothing to do with bridges (there are more bridges in Pittsburgh than in Venice supposedly and plenty in the rest of the country) as I recall. And if something wasn't packaged as per the regs and spilled, it was be easier to stop and clean up in a truck (ie ground delivery) than in a plane.

And now back to the original question. If I were still at the lab, I'd offer to run samples of the old and new through the GC-MS or something. I'm not there and can't do that, but does anyone else here have lab access?

 

[StoneNYC]

As I recall (because I asked someone at Freestyle or B&H back when I couldn't get B&H to send stop bath), it's because there are more regulations and a special training class you have to do if you're going to ship certain chemicals. Stop bath (as a liquid) is one, I'm sure anything that shows up marked ORM-D is on that list. B&H didn't want to send every single person in their shipping department to the class, so stopped shipping those items. Freestyle (being smaller and concentrating more on photography) did send people to the class. Hence, Freestyle will ship things that B&H won't.

It has nothing to do with bridges (there are more bridges in Pittsburgh than in Venice supposedly and plenty in the rest of the country) as I recall. And if something wasn't packaged as per the regs and spilled, it was be easier to stop and clean up in a truck (ie ground delivery) than in a plane.

And now back to the original question. If I were still at the lab, I'd offer to run samples of the old and new through the GC-MS or something. I'm not there and can't do that, but does anyone else here have lab access?

It's really confusing to me as a non-chemists to really understand what's going on here, if the stuff is exactly the same then wouldn't the viscosity also be the same? If the viscosity is different, then something is different in the developer.

Some people are saying they're getting different results some people are saying they're getting the same results, but both consistently mention that the viscosity has changed and gotten thinner...

Therefore, it is NOT the same formula...

I've recently run out, and of course the local lab that had a bunch of it before in the old bottles has none left, I didn't think to buy more like the other guys because everyone was saying they were just changing the bottle, now it turns out they were changing the bottle and the production company that actually makes up the developer. Had I known that, I probably would have actually bought an extra bottle just in case.

Problem is I really don't use the stuff for much, except when I'm doing older films that have fogging, or if for some reason I don't have any DD-X around and I need to push something. Of which I currently only have the old film issue...

Thank goodness I stocked up ok Rodinal (enough for 3 years) since it seems like they keep running out and then making more and then running out, so rather than have to wait, I just preemptively bought a few bottles, but the HC-110 always seem to be available, so I didn't think it would be an issue... Ugh...

 

[erikg]

It's always a good idea to test a new bottle of anything, or a new batch of film. Fred Picker famously complained about Kodak changing HC-110 without notice, and that was back in what, the 80's? The tricky part is how to compare, what is the baseline? How big is the sample size? Individual experiences are probably not enough.

 

[pentaxuser]

It has nothing to do with bridges (there are more bridges in Pittsburgh than in Venice supposedly and plenty in the rest of the country) as I recall. And if something wasn't packaged as per the regs and spilled, it was be easier to stop and clean up in a truck (ie ground delivery) than in a plane.

/QUOTE]

The explanation you have given seems logical to me but can this be correct when Stone has said that in fact all gas( we call it petrol in the U.K.) is delivered totally by boat in New York as it would have to be to comply with what he says is the regulations?

The U.S. certainly seems to be a strange and wonderful country.

pentaxuser

 

[timor]

Thanks for explanations regarding ORM-D. Not such a good news, as I have to bring a lot of the stuff from US. Even phenidone and hydroquinone won't be shipped over the border with Canada.

Back to HC110. Finally I managed to make a few prints and they are not bad. The new HC110 seems to be more delicate, softer, more like Tmax Dev. I like it. Looks like it will be better to extend the time of development, than lower the dilution. Very good sharpness, very good grain, but better with 6ml than 7.5ml. Still have to do a 16 x 20 blowup to check fully. All my observations are in regards of DXN as a negative material.

Viscosity is due to used glycol and there are many kinds of glycol. Anyone has MSDS for the old, Rochester made HC110 ?

 

[StoneNYC]

It has nothing to do with bridges (there are more bridges in Pittsburgh than in Venice supposedly and plenty in the rest of the country) as I recall. And if something wasn't packaged as per the regs and spilled, it was be easier to stop and clean up in a truck (ie ground delivery) than in a plane.

/QUOTE]

The explanation you have given seems logical to me but can this be correct when Stone has said that in fact all gas( we call it petrol in the U.K.) is delivered totally by boat in New York as it would have to be to comply with what he says is the regulations?

The U.S. certainly seems to be a strange and wonderful country.

pentaxuser

Don't take anything I say for fact unless I say "fact" hah! This is only my understanding from living and working in NYC, but I haven't done research on it to confirm anything.

That said, NYC is a place like no other... It really can make or break you, it's certainly a place to itself.

 

[Roger Cole]

It has nothing to do with bridges (there are more bridges in Pittsburgh than in Venice supposedly and plenty in the rest of the country) as I recall. And if something wasn't packaged as per the regs and spilled, it was be easier to stop and clean up in a truck (ie ground delivery) than in a plane.

/QUOTE]

The explanation you have given seems logical to me but can this be correct when Stone has said that in fact all gas( we call it petrol in the U.K.) is delivered totally by boat in New York as it would have to be to comply with what he says is the regulations?

The U.S. certainly seems to be a strange and wonderful country.

pentaxuser

What does NYC have to do with the US?

Seriously, while it is of course technically part of the US it might as well be a different country from, say, metro Atlanta where I live, much less rural Tennessee where I grew up. The thing about the US that isn't always so apparent to those on the other side of the pond unless you've been here is its relative vastness. With the size, the different immigrant groups that settled different areas, the different times at which various areas were settled and later urbanized or not and the different layers of state and local government there are HUGE differences cultural and otherwise from place to place. I realize that's true to varying extents in other places to but believe me, the places I've lived are quite different from each other but none of them is anything like NYC which I've been to only briefly but my wife lived in for a while.

Back to the topic - the developer could work exactly the same and still be somewhat different in composition. Different inert-for-development-purposes bases could give different viscosity and color, for example.

 

[StoneNYC]

Back to the topic - the developer could work exactly the same and still be somewhat different in composition. Different inert-for-development-purposes bases could give different viscosity and color, for example.

Hmm interesting, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[wblynch]

The U.S. certainly seems to be a strange and wonderful country.

pentaxuser

Definitely, and we are getting stranger every day. And Scared. Americans are so scared anymore.

I remember when we weren't scared of anything.

Now we're scared of a bottle of film developer.

 

[Roger Cole]

Sadly true Bill. But it's not just us.

 

[StoneNYC]

Definitely, and we are getting stranger every day. And Scared. Americans are so scared anymore.

I remember when we weren't scared of anything.

Now we're scared of a bottle of film developer.

Ain't that the truth! Sad... scared... poor... are we even a first world country anymore?

 

[timor]

Don't cry guys. We have more serious problems, than US supremacy in the world.

 

[Pioneer]

Scared? I think you may want to speak for yourself.

I bit more cautious and far more understanding of our effect on our world and each other as our wonderful (and strange) country begins to fill. I can understand that in some cases the rules may have gone a bit overboard, but I lived here in the 70s just like most of you. If we had continued down that road and allowed every person and corporation to do what they felt was in their best interest we would be in a far more serious situation than we are.

I remember what the Great Lakes and some our huge rivers looked like. I also lived in Los Angeles when there were days when you could not see the mountains even when you lived in the foothills, and breathing for people with asthma was a huge challenge. I think I prefer this and I am not interested in going back to the days of acid rain.

 

[MattKing]

All these references to it being impossible to ship stuff are, with respect, wrong.

All of the problem materials can be shipped. It is just that they require additional formalities and protective materials, and those formalities and materials are uneconomic for the shipping parties to fulfill or incur.

You can ship nuclear materials if you fulfill the requirements and spend the money.

The HC-110 may have been re-classified because it doubled in size - the rules may exempt quantities less than a US quart (as an example).

I expect that the rules are the reason Ilford doesn't sell Ilfostop in quantities larger than 500 ml.

And about HC-110 and its viscosity - the old HC-110 always seemed to me to be more transparent, less "yellow" and less viscous in a recently manufactured bottle than when it was close to its expiry date. I expect that was a function of the glycol, and that the change over time in that glycol had no measurable effect on HC-110's functionality.

Do people here refuse to use Rodinal that has darkened over time?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Ain't that the truth! Sad... scared... poor... are we even a first world country anymore?

I don't know whether its us or that the whole world is sad, scared and poor. I think we are better off than the rest of the world. It just these things have happened to everyone. Things have become like the old Chinese curse. "May you live in interesting times."

 

[timor]

I expect that was a function of the glycol, and that the change over time in that glycol had no measurable effect on HC-110's functionality.

Glycol is suppose to be very, very stable and chemically inert. No change here. However HC110 contain sulfur dioxide, so over the time moisture absorbed by glycol may cause this gas to become corrosive. In other words, as we protect the other developers from the atmospheric oxygen, we should protect HC110 from contamination by any form of water. (Before the actual use.)

 

[subsole]

Wolfgang, can you buy US version of HC110 in Europe ? It is now the same concentration here and there ?

Yes it's the US version.Same concentration.Made by Tetenal in Germany.The older bottles were made in the US.
I've been using HC-110 for nearly 18 years now and I've never seen a single bottle of that "european HC-110".
Maybe a ghost-developer.



Cheers Wolfgang

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Glycol is suppose to be very, very stable and chemically inert. No change here. However HC110 contain sulfur dioxide, so over the time moisture absorbed by glycol may cause this gas to become corrosive. In other words, as we protect the other developers from the atmospheric oxygen, we should protect HC110 from contamination by any form of water. (Before the actual use.)

Unfortunately an MSDS does not show what is actually in a product but rather what is added together to make the product. Reactions between some of the chemicals will and do occur. The sulfur dioxide reacts with the amines and is no longer present. Older HC-110 MSDS's did not mention sulfur dioxide as a separate entity but used a term like diethanolamine sulfur dioxide adduct. The same thing happens in classic Rordinal which has no free potassium hydroxide in it.

 

[Roger Cole]

Scared? I think you may want to speak for yourself.

I bit more cautious and far more understanding of our effect on our world and each other as our wonderful (and strange) country begins to fill. I can understand that in some cases the rules may have gone a bit overboard, but I lived here in the 70s just like most of you. If we had continued down that road and allowed every person and corporation to do what they felt was in their best interest we would be in a far more serious situation than we are.

I remember what the Great Lakes and some our huge rivers looked like. I also lived in Los Angeles when there were days when you could not see the mountains even when you lived in the foothills, and breathing for people with asthma was a huge challenge. I think I prefer this and I am not interested in going back to the days of acid rain.

No one in their right mind wants to go back to those aspects of those times. But those effects were produced by deliberate releases of relatively large amounts of industrial pollutants. We aren't arguing for that. The problem I and many other people have is with an insanely high level of risk aversion where even the prospect of accidentally spilling a bottle of developer is cause for worry. It shouldn't be. It isn't just in things like this but all around us where any level of risk whatsoever is avoided as if it happening would be the apocalypse.

Back to the developer - it seems the majority of folks are getting results just like the previous HC-110 but a few aren't. That's...weird, and I don't know how to reconcile it. I have an unopened bottle of the older size, which I picked up to try out (but haven't yet) right before it became unavailable. I don't really feel like dropping thirty bucks on a new one just to make comparisons with something else I haven't tried.

 

[timor]

Back to the developer - it seems the majority of folks are getting results just like the previous HC-110 but a few aren't. That's...weird, and I don't know how to reconcile it.

It is not that weird, quality of tap water is rather a factor. Greg Mironchuk is writing about it on his website:
http://www.mironchuk.com/hc-110.html
As there is a little chance, that my tap water changed it must be some change in new HC110 composition. By extending the time by roughly 20% (quite a bit I think) I've got at the end a print very similar to what I was getting before. My concern is, that by extending duration of the bath I will run into problems with grain and contrast.

 

[Roger Cole]

Well first you give a possible explanation, then rule it out. I don't think all those people reporting no change suddenly had their tap water change in such a way as to exactly offset the differences in the developer.

I mix all my developers with distilled water both initially (for powders) and for dilution for use. At roughly a dollar a gallon it's cheap insurance.