Processing Kodak 2383/ECP-2 film as a positive cross-process

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Would be great if they sold the 65mm rolls in single units. I would cut my own film then, buy a huge roll and freeze it.

Several members here have done similar things with 400' rolls of the more conventional 35mm stocks (Ektachrome E-6, Vision3 ECN-2, etc). While costlier, they are much better suited to traditional still photography than the print stock that is the subject of this thread. There don't seem to be any obvious Vision3 bulk options larger than 35mm but there is a recent poll about a possible group order of Aerocolor.

Not as cheap as print stock and not exactly the same as Vision3 color negative (no remjet, for one), but the rolls I've used in 35mm (SantaColor) point to it being a spectacular and flexible film.

 

[cmacd123]

the print stock in a previous generation or three DID have rem jet, But they current stock dropped that to avoid a wash step. when this was used as a theatre film, it was used by the mile, and mostly by TWO labs - Deluxe in Hollywood and Technicolor in Mirabel Quebec. Technicolor moved to Mirabell mostly because of the water restrictions in LA. the entire industry changed the way sound tracks were presented just to skip a wash step when processing the Print stock.

The print Stock, even if it is called "positive" was NEVER reversal processed. May year ago (we be talking decades) there were some reversal print stocks used to make 16mm prints as the early camera negative films were grainer than long gone 16mm Camera reversal films like "Ektachrome Commercial"

the film was intended to be exposed to tungsten light from a DDB projection lamp running at 90 Volts in a Bell and Howell type C Printer. the image source being an Eastman COlor Negative. I can't imagine an application more distant than taking images in a still camera.

there are Several Vison 3 colour negative films. All of which are intended to be used in a camera. and PRINTED on 2383/3383 The line includes a few "Lab Films" used to make Masked positives or masked negative in the Movie film process. the lab films tend to come in 2000 ft rolls.

PLEASE read the Kodak site https://Kodak.com/go/motion under the categories of
camera film", "Lab Film" and Print film. found under the "Products" tab.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said, But the movie folks shoot a Camera film. they then if doing things conventionally make a MASKED master Positive from the Camera Negative on an intermediate film. That in turn is used to make several Masked printing negatives on another Intermediate film. Finaly a series of projection Prints are made on 2383/3383 to send out to be shown. The digital world often truncates this to shooting the Camera negative and scanning it, with all the other steps done as digital video.

Some folks play with sound film. A black and white stock used to record sound tracks. this lately has what is normaly the "edge" printing down the center of the film. The change was to leave the edges clear for the ill fated SONY SDDS system. I only metion this as if you want to get useful results out of Movie Stock you DO need to understand why they are so different from still stock.

 

[koraks]

The digital world often truncates this to shooting the Camera negative and scanning it, with all the other steps done as digital video.

Yeah, this is what most 'shot on film' productions do AFAIK.

Out of curiosity; do you know if the print film discussed earlier (2383/3383) is also used for digital-to-film output in those (few) productions that actually use film projection? Seems to make the most sense to me from a production viewpoint - if film is deemed essential to begin with. Shoot on a Vision3 camera film, scan, post-process & color grade, then expose back onto print film for display.

 

[cmacd123]

Yeah, this is what most 'shot on film' productions do AFAIK.

Out of curiosity; do you know if the print film discussed earlier (2383/3383) is also used for digital-to-film output in those (few) productions that actually use film projection? Seems to make the most sense to me from a production viewpoint - if film is deemed essential to begin with. Shoot on a Vision3 camera film, scan, post-process & color grade, then expose back onto print film for display.

I belive so. I am not someone from a film lab.
I can see using an arrilaster or perhaps an old Cinevator to make a direct print. In fact that was the business case that the Cinevator was marketed on.

one could also make a negative on "

KODAK VISION3 Color Digital Intermediate Film 2254"​

and you use that to make prints... seems that 2254 is optimized for Laser, or CRT based recording systems.​

You would have to make your soundtrack negatives sepratly of course.​

it looks like both the master positive and regular dupe negative are covered these days by​

KODAK VISION Color Intermediate Film 2242/3242/5242​

https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/pro...ilms/vision-color-intermediate-2242-3242-5242
and the only colour Print film still made seems to be

KODAK VISION Color Print Film 2383/3383​

https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/pro...ilms/vision-color-intermediate-2242-3242-5242
and Black and white print is still 2302/3302 which traces it's roots back to 1302 (Nitrate) released in 1941
https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/pro...ilms/vision-color-intermediate-2242-3242-5242
in all cases the numbers starting with 2 are on an ESTAR 35mm base, and the ones starting with 3 are for 16mm, also on an esstar base. Acetate 35mm have numbers starting with 5 and 16mm Acetate have numbers srtarting with 7.
https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/pro...ilms/vision-color-intermediate-2242-3242-5242
https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/pro...ilms/vision-color-intermediate-2242-3242-5242

 

[cmacd123]

I will not try to re-edit the above, sooms that the Photrio system packed up some but not all of the URLS I was cuting and pasting from to be sure I got the numbers right. the URLS will probably take you to the product page fro the various films.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

I will not try to re-edit the above, sooms that the Photrio system packed up some but not all of the URLS I was cuting and pasting from to be sure I got the numbers right. the URLS will probably take you to the product page fro the various films.

Now do us all a solid and try reversal processing some 2383, thanks.

 

[MattKing]

I received this from an informed source:
"ECP film is designed with the Green recording emulsion at the top, the Red recording emulsion in the middle and the Blue recording emulsion at the bottom. As all silver halide grains are inherently sensitive to Blue light, even when spectrally sensitized, unwanted Blue light adsorption occurs with both the Green and Red emulsions meaning that the image will have excess magenta and cyan dye developed in those layers and there is no magic filter that can properly replicate indoor or outdoor scenes using this film. Filters inside the printer are utilized to control that during the film’s normal, as designed, use. If you want to use the film for artistic impression, fine, but no one should ever expect that their film will appear normal, as the film was not designed for that purpose."

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

informed source:
"ECP film is designed [...], as the film was not designed for that purpose."

*Nods* The 2383 print film is interesting because of it's clear base; seemingly ideal for a positive image... but it's no Ektachrome.

For photography's sake, here are some scans from FPP Sun 1, which I think is cousin of 2383, probably 3242.

Nikon FM2n, Nikkor 24mm f/2.8 AF-D
FPP Sun 1 @ 0.5, 85B + 81A filters, ECN-2
V800 negative scan + additional temperature balance in post





Certainly not meant for sunlight.

Edit: Sun 1 does have a purple-ish anti-halation dye(?) that will wash out and stain the developer. I wonder if it serves as a optical filter as has been observed with certain RA-4 papers?

 

[koraks]

I wonder if it serves as a optical filter as has been observed with certain RA-4 papers?

The cyan (Fuji) or pink (Kodak) dye on RA4 paper mostly serves to cut down halation. It's not really a color filter. It contributes a tiny bit in that sense, but it's not very significant. I know there has been mention of people washing out the blue dye from Fuji paper and then magically obtaining daylight balanced paper, but I really can't explain that, other than that exposing a still wet paper might twist the response of the different emulsions into a favorable direction. I specifically verified with Fuji what the purpose of the cyan dye is, and they were very clear on it.

The dyes you see washing out of the film are most likely just sensitizing dyes and indeed perhaps antihalation dyes. The color balance is 'built into' the emulsion set and not something 'overlaid' onto it by coating an additional dye layer or something like that.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Another crack at E6 style reversal of 2383/3383.



Straight scan as positive & a heavy-handed digital correction.


Exposed with a Mamiya 16 w/ 85B filter under 'warm' LED light. Exposed @ ISO 0.8 (f/8 1'20"). B&W first dev, ECP-2 color developer, bleach, fix.