Processing Kodak 2383/ECP-2 film as a positive cross-process

[grainyvision]

[QUOTE

I'm hoping someone here has some kind of insight into this in PE's absence, but ECP film seems like a very obscure material and process. I've seen pretty much nothing in regards to attempts to cross processing it or even just generally using it in-camera.

Anyone have any ideas?

Hi,

I have done lots of experiments with the 2383 and 2393 film stocks.

To use the film in camera can be done, but the results are from from worth the effort. You need to use an unexposed processed piece of film as a filter on the camera lens, I used a piece of 65mm 500T to make a 52mm lens filter. Exposure times are very long even in full sun, expect to expose for 1 second or more. Obviously you will get a negative image on a clear film base which takes some tweaking in scanning.
ECN2 developer works well with processing the film, 3 mins at 38c for the dev, 30s stop, 1 min bleach and 40s Fix, all at 38c.No need to use the bleach at 27c, that's just an industry spec due to the aggressive bleach eating way at the tyres on the processing racks!.
Here is an example of a contact print using 70Y and 5M on a colour head, exposure was 1s at a distance of around 4 inches from enlarger lens to film surface.
View attachment 263995

Here is an example of in camera exposure using the film base as a filter.

View attachment 263996

I did not bother trying to make a contact print from the 2383 negative image to get a Pos because I would imagine further filtering would be needed using the enlarger filter pack.

Another possibility would be to process the in camera exposed film in a B&W reversal kit!. For exposure this would eliminate the need to filter the camera lens so you can expose at 3 iso. An experiment I may do in the summer when light levels are higher for these slow films.

From my experiments of contact printing from Kodak B&W films, like Plus-x onto the 2383, the images are sepia, likely due to the colour dyes in the 2383. Further experiments are needed as I used XTol and TMax fix in the test. Maybe using the ecn2 kit would produce a better B&W result.

I hope this helps you in some way and I'm open to any questions you may have as myself and a few others are doing ongoing experiments with this film stock.

As for the ecp developer, I have some that was made special order by Bellini photo. I found it impossible to balance the filter pack to get the colours correct, maybe because I'm not fully following the ECP processing steps, with things like the pre bleach!. To me, I found a way to get slide from my ecn negatives using the ecn kit which is available from Bellini at a reasonable cost and the workflow is simple and fast.

Mick

.[/QUOTE]

I was able to get a high contrast maskless negative in C-41, but all attempts at reversal processing have been a complete failure, end result is blank film. I've not tried using B/W reversal, but since I have the chemicals to do that now I might try it. I figured such a bleach though would be so aggressive to destroy or damage the dyes, and I'm mainly interested in getting it to behave as a positive color film rather than positive B/W film. I doubt it has enough silver to build good B/W density

 

[eteless]

I made an account just to inform people in future about why this is likely happening.

Note that the colours will be inverted to the charts as they're aimed at the film being developed as a negative image of another film negative (rather than a positive of the real world).

* E-6 process -- Film came out completely clear, no density at all even in the unexposed film area

This isn't surprising at all, CD-3 doesn't react with the dye couplers.

* Clip of custom process after first dev, re-expose, color dev, and bleach and then put back into color dev then bleach/fix again -- Color density developed! I believe this should've just turned the film straight black, but instead did create a very dark positive image with orange "dmin" and green "dmax" with obvious blue dye shining on one side

This is somewhat explained by your first developer...

For reference, the first developer formula:

...

* 1ml of 1% potassium iodide solution

Potassium iodide reacts with the dye couplers, making them highly reactive and likely depleting themselves in the first (black and white) development, the bleach step would reactivate them to some degree and allow the second colour development to actually react with them producing the dye clouds.

 

[grainyvision]

CD-3 does work, I've personally used unmodified C-41 process (Flexicolor chemicals) with ECP-2 film, and it came out with extreme color shifts, but an obvious color response. Very poor picture but can't find the film strip to take another right now: https://i.imgur.com/xBh8o44.jpg

edit: confused the C-41/E-6 color devleopers. I know C-41 CD-4 does work in a negative process. Since E-6 isn't a cheap chemistry kit to keep around for these kind of tests, I used a custom first developer, re-exposure to light, then C-41 processing. This works on other types of film including C-41, E-6, and ECN-2 film to create a color positive. Only ECP-2 fails to create a color positive image in this C-41 based reversal process. I've tried it with actual E-6 once as well, but that didn't work at all either.

I've tried with several first developers, I believe the first one I used had no iodide in it, but all of the results were the same no matter how soft or active, no color development at all.

 

[grainyvision]

Also in general, where are you getting the info for potassium iodide? I've never heard of it "exhausting" dye couplers. It does make sense in the context of being highly restraining for a developer, but not in a first developer causing color to completely fail to develop in a 2nd color processing step. Either way, maybe I need to revisit this with a different first developing agent and using no restrainer to see if I can get any color at all from the process. Maybe metol and carbonate only, balanced with chloride if a restrainer is required later (like in RA-4) after I can confirm it works at all

 

[eteless]

Straight from the datasheet titled "Effects of Mechanical & Chemical Variations in Processes ECP-2D and ECP-2E"... I believe it is H2410 (2409 being the film itself).

It includes the effect of having your baths contaminated with other baths (or straight up using the wrong chemistry).

 

[Alain Deloc]

Can you tell me where did you get that movie reel? And how much?
Maybe I want to get one.

Hi there,
I got some Kodak 2383. I want to use it for positive copies from Vision3 films I shot. I made a quicj test using some ECN2 developer with blank pieces of film.
In the attached image left strip is normally developed (dev + bleach + fixer) and the right strip is processed starting with bleach (bleach + dev + fixer) in order to see the real base of the film. As you can see, the left strip, which is developed normally, got a pale yellow tint. That means it's fogged?

Thanks!

 

[eteless]

As you can see, the left strip, which is developed normally, got a pale yellow tint. That means it's fogged?

It does look fogged but the cause isn't always exposure to light (so the film might still be good).

You specified ECN2 developer, are you using a ferricyanide bleach as well? it makes me think of the fog seen when a stop/clearing bath isn't used between the developer and bleach.

 

[Alain Deloc]

It does look fogged but the cause isn't always exposure to light (so the film might still be good).

You specified ECN2 developer, are you using a ferricyanide bleach as well? it makes me think of the fog seen when a stop/clearing bath isn't used between the developer and bleach.

Indeed, I didn't used a stop bath this time and yes, bleach is ferricyanide based. I remember I washed the film between dev and bleach. I was thinking maybe the film might be fogged by age? It's dated 2009~2010. I will repeat the development with stop bath. But I would try a blank piece of 2383 in bw chemicals. If there is age fog, that should appear also in bw chemicals. What do you think? Does it make any sense?

 

[eteless]

Indeed, I didn't used a stop bath this time and yes, bleach is ferricyanide based. I remember I washed the film between dev and bleach. I was thinking maybe the film might be fogged by age? It's dated 2009~2010. I will repeat the development with stop bath. But I would try a blank piece of 2383 in bw chemicals. If there is age fog, that should appear also in bw chemicals. What do you think? Does it make any sense?

Normally a stop/clearing bath of acetic acid + sodium sulfite is used between developer and ferricyanide bleach to prevent the bleach from oxidizing the developer (resulting in it reacting with dye couplers generating fog).

BW chemicals makes sense as any fog from age should show no matter the developer (although I'll be a little bit surprised if such a slow film has significant fog after only 10 years).

 

[Alain Deloc]

Normally a stop/clearing bath of acetic acid + sodium sulfite is used between developer and ferricyanide bleach to prevent the bleach from oxidizing the developer (resulting in it reacting with dye couplers generating fog).

BW chemicals makes sense as any fog from age should show no matter the developer (although I'll be a little bit surprised if such a slow film has significant fog after only 10 years).

I just made another ECN2 development of a blank piece of film, this time using the stop bath between developer and bleach. Results are identical with left strip shown in that picture I took earlier. So there is only one more step to be done : black and white development in order to check if the fog is real or is just a fail of my ECN2 chems. For the moment, I am pretty sure it's fog from storing conditions.

 

[YoIaMoNwater]

I just made another ECN2 development of a blank piece of film, this time using the stop bath between developer and bleach. Results are identical with left strip shown in that picture I took earlier. So there is only one more step to be done : black and white development in order to check if the fog is real or is just a fail of my ECN2 chems. For the moment, I am pretty sure it's fog from storing conditions.

I’m going to start experimenting this as well. Since I have suppppper expired slides (1980’s Agfa), I was going to check what the first developer conditions will give minimal fog. I’ll be interested in your results.

 

[cmacd123]

should be an edge print about every 18 to 24 inches. (it would be Magenta I believe so it would not interfere with the Cyan of the SDDS soundtrack)

bleach will not have any work to do if their is no developed silver, BUT it will cause bad staining if even a drop gets into the developer. Do yourself a favor and get a copy of the ECP processing manual (free download from Kodak) and try to understand the way that it is supposed to work.

 

[Alain Deloc]

should be an edge print about every 18 to 24 inches. (it would be Magenta I believe so it would not interfere with the Cyan of the SDDS soundtrack)

bleach will not have any work to do if their is no developed silver, BUT it will cause bad staining if even a drop gets into the developer. Do yourself a favor and get a copy of the ECP processing manual (free download from Kodak) and try to understand the way that it is supposed to work.

Do yourself a favor and think. A piece of unexposed film developed properly will deliver the film base as it is. If the film it's fogged, even unexposed, it will show some density after processing. That's how you test if a film it's still fresh or not.

 

[Alain Deloc]

I’m going to start experimenting this as well. Since I have suppppper expired slides (1980’s Agfa), I was going to check what the first developer conditions will give minimal fog. I’ll be interested in your results.

I made an extended experiment in order to check the base of the reel I got. Check the attached image. First strip is C41 processing which gives a greenish layer with density. Second strip is ECN2 processing , which gives a transparent pale-yellow base. Third is still ECN2 processing in this order: bleach + fix +dev, which clears completely any emulsion. The last strip is developed in black and white chemistry : Kodak D97 dev + TMax fixer.
The third strip processed with bleach, fixer and dev gives the most clearer base, but there is still a very pale-yellow tint. There are 2 possibilities: this is how the base looks or there is some coating left on it. I noticed that the ECP2 developer recipe contains some sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide which I think that are also clearing the coating.

 

[cmacd123]

Do yourself a favor and think. A piece of unexposed film developed properly will deliver the film base as it is. If the film it's fogged, even unexposed, it will show some density after processing. That's how you test if a film it's still fresh or not.

exactly. one sample with Normal processing, should see edge printing and any fog. One sample omit the developer, (not place it in the wrong order - just omit) should see a totally blank sample of film if Fixer is OK. Bleach will only have any silver that had been reduced previously to deal with.

 

[Alain Deloc]

exactly. one sample with Normal processing, should see edge printing and any fog. One sample omit the developer, (not place it in the wrong order - just omit) should see a totally blank sample of film if Fixer is OK. Bleach will only have any silver that had been reduced previously to deal with.

Kodak 2383 doesn't have edge markings. Also , when you want to see the film base, after bleach and fix you need to use the developer in order to clear the coating. Otherwise, it goes out yellow. First time I used only bleach and fix and base was yellow-foggy. After some developer, it was proper.

 

[mohmad khatab]

I made an extended experiment in order to check the base of the reel I got. Check the attached image. First strip is C41 processing which gives a greenish layer with density. Second strip is ECN2 processing , which gives a transparent pale-yellow base. Third is still ECN2 processing in this order: bleach + fix +dev, which clears completely any emulsion. The last strip is developed in black and white chemistry : Kodak D97 dev + TMax fixer.
The third strip processed with bleach, fixer and dev gives the most clearer base, but there is still a very pale-yellow tint. There are 2 possibilities: this is how the base looks or there is some coating left on it. I noticed that the ECP2 developer recipe contains some sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide which I think that are also clearing the coating.

very great
There is only one process left that you haven't tested, which is the official ECP2D.,

 

[awty]

Does anyone know of the reciprocity correction for long exposures is with this film?
This is from Kodak but doesnt tell me the correction for long exposures, or does it?
RECIPROCITY You can print this film on a variety of printers, ranging from slow step-optical printers to very high-speed continuous contact printers used for release printing. Exposure times may range from 1/10 of a second to almost 1/3000 of a second, with little or no change in tone scale. For printers that change exposure time during printing, new speed reciprocity correction should be used. KODAK VISION Color Print Film / 2383 has improved fade and dissolve characteristics. Printers with mechanical fader cams will no longer need to use filter correction to achieve neutral color balance with fades and dissolves. Printers with programmable light valves will need to reprogram the fade and dissolve algorithm in the printer to obtain neutral color balance with fades and dissolves. Consult the printer manufacturer for the proper test procedure to obtain the appropriate corrections.

 

[grainyvision]

I gave up on this film for a long time, but decided to try it again... and after 1 strip of completely blank film and 2 strips of almost transparent film, I think I'm starting to figure it out. Test slide (direct positive) image under daylight strobe flashes shot at about 1.5 ISO: (quick cell phone pic)

The exact process is very much still in flux, but I'll write down the steps:

* Process temp 104F
* Custom first developer 5m
* ECN-2 (sulfuric acid) stop bath, 30s
* Rinse
* Remove film from tank and expose to light for 2m (NOTE: it appears that this film is subject to solarization, so you can overdo this step)
* Rinse/heat to proper 104F temp
* Modified ECP-2 color developer, 3.5m (less bromide, less sulfite, more carbonate, more CD-2)
* ECN-2 stop bath, 30s
* Rinse
* ECN-2 ferricyanide formula bleach, 7m
* Rinse
* C-41 (Kodak) fixer, 2.5m
* Rinse

I don't want to go into details about formulation until I figure it out more. The first dev is currently an MQ dev, but idk if that's the right choice. Anyway here's what I know:

* I tried using a stannous chloride+acetic acid reversal bath. This was a poor idea, I got solarization very easily as well as under exposure
* I'm unsure if the modified ECP-2 color developer formula was required or wise
* This film is VERY easily subject to fog in the first developer. I managed to tame the fog with my non-optimal developer by adding 20ml of 1% benzotriazole to it. I believe this is why the film is so slow. Before this, I got very poor results but the speed the film tended to seem to be with early tests was around 12 or 25 ISO, which is much easier to handle (especially if filtration is required). Specifically the red sensitive (cyan) layer is extremely easy to fog, with the green sensitive (magenta) layer also being relatively easy. Early results with too active of developers which did not have enough restrainer would give either completely clear strips due to fog, or strips with only yellow color and a hint of magenta.
* It is difficult to judge if the film is fogged after first development. If the image is very much visible but completely dark grey and opaque when held against light, it is likely too fogged and will end up processing as clear. The desired results is a carefully balanced translucent with some light greys on highlights and darkgreys on whites, with the darker shadows being a deep red (indicative of very fine grain silver) color which is fairly translucent.
* This film is VERY sensitive to iodide additions. As little as a drop or two of 1% iodide is enough to completely ruin the film. The formula I used for this had 2 drops of 0.1% iodide
* The dmax of this film is incredible, and is much darker than slide film. dmin seems to be a very light and mild grey when properly processed.

 

[mohmad khatab]

I gave up on this film for a long time, but decided to try it again... and after 1 strip of completely blank film and 2 strips of almost transparent film, I think I'm starting to figure it out. Test slide (direct positive) image under daylight strobe flashes shot at about 1.5 ISO: (quick cell phone pic)
View attachment 287974

The exact process is very much still in flux, but I'll write down the steps:

* Process temp 104F
* Custom first developer 5m
* ECN-2 (sulfuric acid) stop bath, 30s
* Rinse
* Remove film from tank and expose to light for 2m (NOTE: it appears that this film is subject to solarization, so you can overdo this step)
* Rinse/heat to proper 104F temp
* Modified ECP-2 color developer, 3.5m (less bromide, less sulfite, more carbonate, more CD-2)
* ECN-2 stop bath, 30s
* Rinse
* ECN-2 ferricyanide formula bleach, 7m
* Rinse
* C-41 (Kodak) fixer, 2.5m
* Rinse

I don't want to go into details about formulation until I figure it out more. The first dev is currently an MQ dev, but idk if that's the right choice. Anyway here's what I know:

* I tried using a stannous chloride+acetic acid reversal bath. This was a poor idea, I got solarization very easily as well as under exposure
* I'm unsure if the modified ECP-2 color developer formula was required or wise
* This film is VERY easily subject to fog in the first developer. I managed to tame the fog with my non-optimal developer by adding 20ml of 1% benzotriazole to it. I believe this is why the film is so slow. Before this, I got very poor results but the speed the film tended to seem to be with early tests was around 12 or 25 ISO, which is much easier to handle (especially if filtration is required). Specifically the red sensitive (cyan) layer is extremely easy to fog, with the green sensitive (magenta) layer also being relatively easy. Early results with too active of developers which did not have enough restrainer would give either completely clear strips due to fog, or strips with only yellow color and a hint of magenta.
* It is difficult to judge if the film is fogged after first development. If the image is very much visible but completely dark grey and opaque when held against light, it is likely too fogged and will end up processing as clear. The desired results is a carefully balanced translucent with some light greys on highlights and darkgreys on whites, with the darker shadows being a deep red (indicative of very fine grain silver) color which is fairly translucent.
* This film is VERY sensitive to iodide additions. As little as a drop or two of 1% iodide is enough to completely ruin the film. The formula I used for this had 2 drops of 0.1% iodide
* The dmax of this film is incredible, and is much darker than slide film. dmin seems to be a very light and mild grey when properly processed.

Brother, would you allow me to send you a private message with some suggestions?

 

[kfed1984]

Was this processed as negative or positive? I don't doubt CD2 would give better color accuracy and the official Kodak formulas are public for processing this film as expected... but nothing exists for trying to make it a positive film

CD-2 is available from artcraftchemicals.com:

CD-2 (Part#: 1088)

USA ground ship only. ORM-D--0.5 pound

artcraftchemicals.com

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

CD-2 is available from artcraftchemicals.com

The sticking point with this film doesn't seem to be the color developer, but the first developer.

Normally, this stock is contact printed with an orange-masked negative via a tungsten light source and developed via the ECP-2 process directly into a positive print. EZPZ.

If you attempt an E6-style negative reversal, the first developer has an enormous impact on the ability of the color developer to function at all during the 2nd development step. In most cases there is *zero* dye formation whatsoever happening during the color developer step regardless of the developer used (ECN-2, C-41, ECP-2, E-6). The posts above outline some 1st developer experiments that seem to preserve the activity of the emulsion during subsequent E6-style color development.

Using this film in-camera and developing as a negative (in any process, color or B&W) can produce excellent results if you can deal with the clear base and the film's white balance (if color).

 

[kfed1984]

I've seen this film on B&H in bulk rolls. Is it the same as used by Cinestill with the remjet removed? It's available in 35 and 70mm from B&H. Is it possible to trim 70mm to medium format somehow?

If so, it sells for around $1000 for a 2500 foot roll. Can make a lot of film rolls from this.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1482764-REG/kodak_7434517_vision_color_print_film.html/overview

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Is it the same as used by Cinestill with the remjet removed?

No, but it is the corresponding Vision3 family print stock, which has always been without a remjet layer as it isn't prescribed for use directly in cine cameras.

Used in still cameras for pictorial purposes it is extremely slow (~ISO 3) and even slower after heavy filtration for daylight shooting (~0.8 ISO).

I have some in 16mm but there are also retail offerings in 35mm.

Edit: There are a smattering of examples around the forum with this thread being one concentration. Bear in mind there is more than one stock discussed in that thread, but they're all 'weird' Vision3 films IIRC.

 

[kfed1984]

Just checked vision3, and they sell 65mm rolls 400 foot long, but only sold in multiples of 16 !!

B&H sells ECN-2 processing chemistry too.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1619906-REG/cinestill_film_cs2p1000ml_cs2_cine_simplified_ecn.html/overview

Would be great if they sold the 65mm rolls in single units. I would cut my own film then, buy a huge roll and freeze it.