"Printmaker's friend": New emulsion from Calvin Grier to replace gum bichromate

[nmp]

That's possible. I'm participate in a DAS purchase he organizes and he did mention that he's going to keep a truckload of the material himself for "the next 50 years" or something to that effect. Seems like he's going to keep messing with gelatin at least some of the time.

Yeah...that was my clue.

:Niranjan.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Well, yeah. I don't think there was any doubt about that.

Mind you, I think I get where you're coming from. I won't be likely to switch from animal gelatin-based carbon transfer to this product. I have no rational arguments for this whatsoever, but to me, the fact that I can make a print out of dead pig, chopped-down tree and burned stuff is a major part of the romance. The fact that those ingredients have gone through industrialized processes just like the polymer Calvin sells, somehow doesn't quite change that. As I said, it's an irrational thing.

It's not the romance of the process, more that photopolymers aren't new at all in printmaking processes (either craft/ art or industrially) as substitutes for dichromate sensitised colloids - which tends to suggest this product is not as innovative as Greer's marketing suggested it was.

And, with things like Photopolymer gravure, you can make suitable positives by purely analogue means pretty easily.

 

[koraks]

which tends to suggest this product is not as innovative as Greer's marketing suggested it was.

Perhaps. I don't doubt he took an existing polymer from the shelf and an activator to go with it. Maybe something from the screen printing industry that isn't used very widely (yet). Innovative is a bit of a fickle term. There are many ways to define it. What's certain is that he's marketing something that wasn't used for this application before. Even if it's not radically new, it's still seemingly quite useful. In the end that's more relevant than how innovative it is.

 

[blacksquare]

So PMF is out. Anyone planning to try it?

I would like to try it for BW prints from silver negative.

 

[Carnie Bob]

Interesting thread, I worked with Calvin on his last book on Gum Printing giving my two cents . I also purchased a major order of his
pigments which I really like for tri colour gum printing. Luckily I purchased about a 2 year supply, I am not sure if he will go back to manufacturing
the pigments I like as he seems intent to move on with this printmakers friend emulsion which at this point have no intent to explore. Todd Gangler with Charles Berger were also describing an emulsion they were going to make which peaked my interest , but in the end it was not something I could put into my practice. Right now I am looking for a Canadian Source of Pigments . I have a line on two companies and we will see if they can make what I need.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Wow a two year supply! That must have set you back a bit... I can barely afford a three tube set of Calvin's pigments I'll stick with Daniel Smith. Been quite happy with them for both gum and carbon... Nor am I interested in this gumless emulsion.

 

[Carnie Bob]

I had to commit so he could get the magenta pigments from China. around $4000 CAD I sold some of it to others to help but I have a lot

 

[koraks]

Todd Gangler with Charles Berger were also describing an emulsion they were going to make which peaked my interest

Was that the project with the flakes that you could reconstitute and then coat at home? I read about that a few years ago, but I'm not sure what, if anything, came of it.
There was also Ultrastable of course, but that's eons ago and it was basically what we today call DAS carbon. Charles has released the formulas into the public domain; I used them in my own DAS carbon work to arrive at my own formulas.

I'll stick with Daniel Smith

On a per gram of pigment basis, that's about the most expensive option.
Cheapest is getting dry pigments and dispersing them yourself. It's hard to beat Calvin's pastes in terms of quality, and he has done a lot of work in selecting optimal pigments. But it's not that hard to make something that works very well with pigments that are easily and fairly cheaply available. I virtually only use dry pigments now.

Nor am I interested in this gumless emulsion.

Yeah, for some reason it doesn't appeal to me, either. What I like about gum and gelatin is that it's basically resin that has bled from a wounded tree and ground up dead animal. Call me a romantic, but I find that sort of appeal hard to resist.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Was that the project with the flakes that you could reconstitute and then coat at home? I read about that a few years ago, but I'm not sure what, if anything, came of it.
There was also Ultrastable of course, but that's eons ago and it was basically what we today call DAS carbon. Charles has released the formulas into the public domain; I used them in my own DAS carbon work to arrive at my own formulas.



On a per gram of pigment basis, that's about the most expensive option.
Cheapest is getting dry pigments and dispersing them yourself. It's hard to beat Calvin's pastes in terms of quality, and he has done a lot of work in selecting optimal pigments. But it's not that hard to make something that works very well with pigments that are easily and fairly cheaply available. I virtually only use dry pigments now.



Yeah, for some reason it doesn't appeal to me, either. What I like about gum and gelatin is that it's basically resin that has bled from a wounded tree and ground up dead animal. Call me a romantic, but I find that sort of appeal hard to resist.

I'd rather not ground up my own pigments but... can you point me to some good dry pigments, mainly for tri-colour? Thanks!
And don't forget the smell. Sweet smell of gum arabic to gelatin's smell of death

 

[koraks]

can you point me to some good dry pigments, mainly for tri-colour?

I use Kremer pigments, but the following are available from any of the major brands:
Cyan PB15:3
Magenta PR122
Yellow something like PY151 or PY154

Cyan is pretty much fixed; I think everyone and everything uses PB15:3, and otherwise something very close to it like PB15:4.
Magenta is more varied; you have one or two other options there that give high chroma/saturation, are transparent, lightfast and mix well, but PR122 is a safe bet and very popular. If you find PR122 too red and want something more pink for your magenta, try PV19. It's also very saturated.
For yellow you have lots of options, really, but I think they all have their drawbacks. AFAIK this one is the most of a compromise. Pretty much all yellows are either too opaque to work well in tricolor, or they aren't very lightfast, or if they are, they aren't very saturated.

I once wrote a blog about it, but the ones above are a safe bet and it's also what Calvin used to recommend at least before he started his work on the earth pigments: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/couleur-locale-the-search-for-color-in-carbon/

If you want to try them out, you can get those in watercolor paints as well. Winsor & Newton has all of the above AFAIK (not quite sure on both yellows; definitely either one) and that means Daniel Smith most likely has them, too.

Since I only do double transfer carbon, staining is not much of an issue for me. Calvin did lots of testing on his pigments and I recall he found that the Kremer 15:3 stained more than he liked to. But I think he afterwards revised his gum printing procedure, introducing interlayers, which more or less eliminated staining problems anyway.

Sweet smell of gum arabic

Mine always turns sour as it's supposed to! But frankly, I don't do much with gum. Mostly with gelatin. Pig skin gelatin reeks bad! Still, not half as bad as the little jar of albumen I keep in the fridge for subbing temporary support. I seriously have to open all windows here whenever I use it. Oddly, it still works just fine...

 

[Carnie Bob]

Was that the project with the flakes that you could reconstitute and then coat at home? I read about that a few years ago, but I'm not sure what, if anything, came of it.
There was also Ultrastable of course, but that's eons ago and it was basically what we today call DAS carbon. Charles has released the formulas into the public domain; I used them in my own DAS carbon work to arrive at my own formulas.



On a per gram of pigment basis, that's about the most expensive option.
Cheapest is getting dry pigments and dispersing them yourself. It's hard to beat Calvin's pastes in terms of quality, and he has done a lot of work in selecting optimal pigments. But it's not that hard to make something that works very well with pigments that are easily and fairly cheaply available. I virtually only use dry pigments now.



Yeah, for some reason it doesn't appeal to me, either. What I like about gum and gelatin is that it's basically resin that has bled from a wounded tree and ground up dead animal. Call me a romantic, but I find that sort of appeal hard to resist.

Yes I believe it was the flakes, it was not what Todd had described a year earlier to me.

 

[CMB]

Andrew O’Neill wrote:

Yeah, for some reason it doesn't appeal to me, either. What I like about gum and gelatin is that it's basically resin that has bled from a wounded tree and ground up dead animal. Call me a romantic, but I find that sort of appeal hard to resist.

Actually, the problem with synthetic polymers such as PVA/PVOH is that they will yellow over time (both in the dark and when exposed to light). Not sure what Calvin is using in his Printmaker Friend, but as there is no mention of stability testing in any of his presentations, I advise proceeding with caution.

Charles

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Andrew O’Neill wrote:

Yeah, for some reason it doesn't appeal to me, either. What I like about gum and gelatin is that it's basically resin that has bled from a wounded tree and ground up dead animal. Call me a romantic, but I find that sort of appeal hard to resist.

Actually, the problem with synthetic polymers such as PVA/PVOH is that they will yellow over time (both in the dark and when exposed to light). Not sure what Calvin is using in his Printmaker Friend, but as there is no mention of stability testing in any of his presentations, I advise proceeding with caution.

Charles

A very good point to consider. Thanks!

 

[Lachlan Young]

the problem with synthetic polymers such as PVA/PVOH is that they will yellow over time (both in the dark and when exposed to light). Not sure what Calvin is using in his Printmaker Friend, but as there is no mention of stability testing in any of his presentations, I advise proceeding with caution.

The lack of disclosure is what has bothered me from the outset - while it makes sense from the perspective of it being a readily obtainable material (at the end of the day it's a UV cross-linking process, essentially the same whether it's collagen, polymer or other colloid) - there is no real pressure on the industries that use photopolymer (be it graphic arts or anything else) for it to be archival in any sense. I suspect it probably originates as a screen printing emulsion.

 

[koraks]

I suspect it probably originates as a screen printing emulsion.

AFAIK Calvin's product is basically identical to Zerochrome SbQ. So yeah, screen printing originated.

 

[Carnie Bob]

A very good point to consider. Thanks!

Hi Andrew - haven't used this forum for awhile, I think I just sent you a PM or conversation , let me know when you see it.

thanks Bob

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Hi Andrew - haven't used this forum for awhile, I think I just sent you a PM or conversation , let me know when you see it.

thanks Bob

Got it, thanks!

 

[Lachlan Young]

AFAIK Calvin's product is basically identical to Zerochrome SbQ. So yeah, screen printing originated.

The fact that the SbQ was available in a clear form seems to have been what drove the initial choice by Simoncini & Brandenburg - the guesstimate being made in Greer's application is probably that it'll be no more yellow over time than unbrightened gelatin is at the outset. Overall, a potentially very worthwhile process, if clear data about its longer term durability becomes available.

Brandenburg's work with using the emulsion to make polymer gravure plates on an Agfa Synaps substrate is also potentially quite exciting, especially if you have purposes where being able to readily punch the plates for register would be handy.

 

[koraks]

Brandenburg's work with using the emulsion to make polymer gravure plates on an Agfa Synaps substrate

I've not read about this yet; sounds interesting. Although I wonder how much of an improvement over existing polymer film it is?

 

[Lachlan Young]

I've not read about this yet; sounds interesting. Although I wonder how much of an improvement over existing polymer film it is?

From what I can see, I wouldn't use it to substitute for a Toyobo plate, but it seems to offer some interesting alternatives to other current products, including possibly using if for things like collotype without too much complexity.

 

[PGum]

Interesting thread, I worked with Calvin on his last book on Gum Printing giving my two cents . I also purchased a major order of his
pigments which I really like for tri colour gum printing. Luckily I purchased about a 2 year supply, I am not sure if he will go back to manufacturing
the pigments I like as he seems intent to move on with this printmakers friend emulsion which at this point have no intent to explore. Todd Gangler with Charles Berger were also describing an emulsion they were going to make which peaked my interest , but in the end it was not something I could put into my practice. Right now I am looking for a Canadian Source of Pigments . I have a line on two companies and we will see if they can make what I need.

Hi Bob, I would be happy to hear if you have luck with a local supply. l have some of Calvin’s which work well. Also tested some yellow pastes from Kama and Kremer, some work well, others not so much. Still looking around for a repeatable supply although I am not a bulk user, so limited possibilities. My colloid base is gelatin.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I just received PMF. One bottle of each of cyan, magenta, and yellow. The purchase price, plus shipping converted to Cdn dollars, then UPS fee slapped on top...Small fortune! Now I have to figure out how to use this stuff (I know Calvin has an ebook...) Use it straight out of the bottle (pretty thick stuff) or dilute it with water... and I heard it's quite sensitive, up to 10x faster... I never size my papers for good old gum printing. I wonder if sizing is necessary with this stuff... Once I'm finished this carbon print I've been working on, I'll start playing around with it...

 

[koraks]

Does he sell it with pigment added to it already? I thought he sold it as a sensitized colloid to which you were supposed to add your own colorant. I see now that he offers both options. Neat.

Looking forward to some tests!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Does he sell it with pigment added to it already? I thought he sold it as a sensitized colloid to which you were supposed to add your own colorant. I see now that he offers both options. Neat.

Looking forward to some tests!

 

[koraks]

Well, that should get you some prints. I have the impression that Calvin is quite conservative about the yield of his products.