I like the style of the sketch, a lot.
You know "extra" and "over" can be pushed vertically to make good prints.
Like this?
View attachment 67350
I'm with Michael. I'm not sure what you are getting at. How is this different from a tone reproduction diagram?
I'm going to sleep on this and see if I can think of a better way to express it.
Was your attachment supposed to be a windmill?
Actually no. Moving the curves up would make a very different prints.
The "over" curve could never print the same highlights as the other three could, that detail is simply lost somewhere above the shoulder, just as surely as if it were an underexposure at the other end of the curve.
The "extra" curve, on the other hand, would print different subject matter in each print zone if it were moved up, it would not produce the print we originally visualized/planned.
The "box" and "extra" curves though can both produce good prints with all the zones falling as planned producing nearly identical prints.
Haist has done it more simply!
PE
How are the Zone reference lines supposed to work? Are they a through line running from a subject luminance to the paper luminance or are they Zone paper references? If they are Zone paper references, I thought there wasn't a correlation between print Zones and specific reflection densities. If they are a through line, the line would be distorted by the camera image, film and paper curve. Also, I might be reading them wrong, but it looks to me like the exposure labels are backwards. The under doesn't have any portion of the curve touching Zone III and over doesn't have any part of the curve touching Zone VIII.
I agree. Kodak and others like Haist, have a simple approach. I like the pproach inthe kodak publication best.
Jed
Regarding the "under" curve I've drawn "it does not get enough camera exposure" to create detail on the negative for my chosen zone III subject matter, it is showing how a failure/operator error/scrimping on exposure might lose detail. The film curve in my diagram remains pegged to where my chosen subject matter falls or in this case fails to fall..
Essentially the same lines as your windmills show between Q1&Q4, I'm moving those two quadrants apart and superimposing possible negative curves between them. There is also one other big difference, the lines are meant to show the photo I want at either end regardless of negative exposure.
Haist has done it more simply!
So, those aren't actual film curves? With underexposure, the film curve will still have a Zone III, just not at the same point on the curve as it would with normal exposure. A sliding gray scale would work better for what you are wanting to illustrate. How are you planning to define print Zones? An overexposed negative can be printed down. Will this be taken into account or will it re-enforce the notion that a specific negative density is required to produce a specific print reflection density?
I will try to scan an example from Haist today.
I think what Mark is trying for in his sketch is to sort of simplify the tone reproduction illustration by essentially fixing all the variables except negative exposure. Somehow that is all modeled and fixed into the horizontal lines so that you then move the paper curve up and down and the shift directly reflects the change in negative exposure without showing the transitions. I think.
My thought is that this is similar to combining the windmill with a Dorst for the transition between subject and negative. Jones and Dorst diagrams can of course be combined (there is an example in Henry).
Or I may be out in left field.
Haist has done it more simply!
PE
Do you have a link or PDF you could share to the Kodak paper?
Jed
I googled with your reference from #7 but it didn't pop.
You might look in the catalogue of the US libraries. It is a common kodak publication, even reprinted and sold as a book (but maybe under a different title).I could make a PDF, but my paper version is a xerox copy I got from the Kodak people at the same time I had lot of additional discussions at kodak on this ( and other) subjects. the print quality of the publication is not optimal.
Jed
Correct, they are not actual curves, as I said from the start, this is a rough illustration of an idea.
If I pick a specific subject in a scene that I want to print as zone III on paper it is very possible because an underexposure to get a negative with no usable info for that subject, no detail just black. Its a demonstration of the classic advice we all get that with an underexposure detail is truly lost.
With that same subject defining zone III the other three curves have zone III but at different densities.
Defining or pegging print zones in my example is very much done as Adams might have, looking at a scene, deciding what range to pick and picking certain subject matter and saying I want that to fall in such and such zone.
Printing the curves I labled as box and extra would require different enlarger exposures.
The value I see in consistent negative density for a given zone is not addressed by my illustration. That is more a matter of working efficiently.
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