print meter

[tballphoto]

http://www.darkroomautomation.com/em.htm

Is this a useful thing to have when starting out with enlarging, and having no real clue and no access to anyone who has done a print before in person,

 

[MattKing]

With all due respect to the Darkroom Automation's proprietor, who posts here regularly, my answer is no.
Once you gain some knowledge and experience, they can be very useful.

 

[tballphoto]

so in essence the light meter system CAN be useful to have but ONLY when you know WTF your doing with an enlarger?

 

[MattKing]

Correct.

 

[tballphoto]

interesting, the website makes it out as a "quick helper for the new person to enlarging NOT to screw things up"

 

[mshchem]

Test strips.

 

[tballphoto]

Test strips.

if test strips, or even of those pie chart things is the solution,

how do i determine what section is actually better if the image is not consistent across eac test strip or pie piece? if the 12 second is "great" and is comprised of a grey object on a white background, but the section for 4 seconds is a black shadow in a door way and looks good,,, what do i choose for final image

 

[mshchem]

if test strips, or even of those pie chart things is the solution,

how do i determine what section is actually better if the image is not consistent across eac test strip or pie piece? if the 12 second is "great" and is comprised of a grey object on a white background, but the section for 4 seconds is a black shadow in a door way and looks good,,, what do i choose for final image

I usually a LOT of paper making full sized prints after test strips get you in the ball park.

Meters are great, especially if you include a test card like a 18% gray card in your shot. Then you have a standard to meter. The fancier the equipment, the better the resolution. You need to read up.
The pie chart Kodak darkroom projection print thing helps a lot.

 

[tballphoto]

I usually a LOT of paper making full sized prints after test strips get you in the ball park.

Meters are great, especially if you include a test card like a 18% gray card in your shot. Then you have a standard to meter. The fancier the equipment, the better the resolution. You need to read up.
The pie chart Kodak darkroom projection print thing helps a lot.

Got low cost recommendations that would work for a somewhat mathematically impaired person

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

With all due respect ...

When I find myself prefacing a statement "With all due respect" it is a prelude to my politely telling someone they are an idiot.

But, as we all get our chance to be an idiot now and then...

If you are just starting out then an enlarging meter won't be of much practical help. Instead, it will probably just lead you to confusion. OTOH, if you like gadgets who am I to dissuade you.

Play around making prints in the old 'traditional' manner for a few months. Then think about a meter.

One thing that will help a great deal from your very first print is an f-Stop Timer. If you are going to put money anywhere, that's the place to put it. To be ecumenical, timers are available from Darkroom Automation, RH Designs and, if you have the money, Heiland.

Darkroom metering only makes sense when combined with f-Stop timing - be it a dedicated timer, a chart on the wall, or a phone app. By starting off using f-Stop timing you will have less to unlearn.

Outside of the darkroom light meters make sense for film as you don't get to see your results right away and so the film exposure has to be reasonably correct. For B&W you can be 1 stop under to 2 stops over and still get a reasonably good print from the negative; most any light meter, or even a printed exposure guide, will get you that close.

When printing you need to get to within a ~1/10th of a stop for a really good print. That either means lots of test prints - a method that is both reliable and pretty brainless (hence the reliability, our brains not being all that we think they are) - or by pretty precise metering.

An enlarging exposure meter can quickly get you to within 0.5 stops and within a paper grade of your final print (as can an experienced eye) and let you produce a first work print. From there a quick test strip will usually get things nailed.

If you are willing to take a bit more time with the meter it can get you to that very good print on the first try.

And a meter is a great help when it comes to finding dodge and burn exposures after you have that first good print.

 

[brian steinberger]

I have both the F-stop timer and the enlarging meter. Both are great tools. I would second Nicholas’s recommendation and certainly get the F-stop timer first. Then learn how to make prints with test strips. Once you learn the basics then you could look into the meter. I like to use the meter for quick prints. If I take shots of my daughter playing at the park and just want prints without spending tons of time with test strips. For my personal work I will use the meter to get me started but there are still usually test strips and work prints from there.
Good luck to you.

 

[Pieter12]

I usually use awhole sheet or at least an 8x10 to make test "strips." You can also make test strips of individual critical areas by moving the paper under a black sheet wtih a rectangular window cut into it. Some people will cut or tear paper into small pieces and place them under different areas of the image to get an idea of the exposure needed for those particular areas--useful for dodging and burning big prints. Take your time, don't be afraid of using lots of paper, you'll soon get the hang of it all. And I agree that f-stop timing is the way to go, the timers are not cheap, though.

 

[mshchem]

F stop timer is a great idea. My setup has it's own controller, so I have to use a phone app. It's a bit of a pain. I would put a f stop timer on your list!!

 

[VinceInMT]

I guess my question would be what is the OP trying to accomplish? Save time? Save paper? Increase accuracy/repeatability?

FWIW, I’ve been making test strips since 1973 and don’t mind the additional time involved. The darkroom is one of those places that, except for timers, doesn’t have a clock.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

... I agree that f-stop timing is the way to go, the timers are not cheap, though.

Hmmm.

For non-fstop plain-ole count down in seconds timers, per B&H website:

$398 GraLab 451 w/ footswitch
$370 CatLab w/ footswitch (does have some rudimentary f-stop feature)
$352 Beseler w/ footswitch
$238 Paterson 2000D (footswitch N/A)
$58 - GraLab footswitch included in price above where needed

Darkroom Automation f-Stop Timer
$305 w/footswitch

From that I can only conclude that an f-Stop timer is the cheapest digital timer you can buy. Well, the Paterson is a bit cheaper, but no footswitch.

Used digital timers are cheaper than used f-Stop timers, but used f-Stop timers are few and far between and often command prices comparable to new units.

 

[naaldvoerder]

With all due respect, I think a f-stop timer and a meter are very useful tools for any dark room printer. It will make time spend in the darkroom much more efficient and much more pleasurable.

 

[Pieter12]

Used digital timers are cheaper than used f-Stop timers, but used f-Stop timers are few and far between and often command prices comparable to new units.

Used linear digital timers are more plentiful. I searched for a long time on the used market for an f-stop timer, ended up with a new one from RH Designs. I only regret that yours had not come back into production at that time, but so it goes. On that subject, does anyone know if the Maya timer has been delivered to anyone yet?

 

[MattKing]

With all due respect ...
My "no" answer was predicated on the OP's describing himself as "having no real clue and no access to anyone who has done a print before in person".
Get past that point - have some idea how things work - and the meter may end up being very useful (if that more analytical approach is one that you find resonates with you).
But I don't think that the meter will make any difference at the very beginning.
And I would be concerned that there would be an expectation that it would solve problems for you at that stage in your learning that it probably won't - leading to frustration.
I'd like one, but for me it would be an aid and a convenience.
As for the test strips and the pie shaped aid, use them first on important mid-tones in an image. If the print exposure that gives you good mid-tones gives you highlights or shadows you don't like, use separate small tests in those areas, and build up a map of how much exposure each such part may need. It is at that time you will get to practice burning and dodging - the most important printing techniques (IMHO).
And as for the Mr. Linden's wonderful f/stop timer? Sadly, Santa didn't come through for me this year, despite all my asking. I'll just have to continue using f/stop timing the manual way.

 

[John Koehrer]

With all due respect ...
My "no" answer was predicated on the OP's describing himself as "having no real clue and no access to anyone who has done a print before in person".
Get past that point - have some idea how things work - and the meter may end up being very useful (if that more analytical approach is one that you find resonates with you).
But I don't think that the meter will make any difference at the very beginning.
And I would be concerned that there would be an expectation that it would solve problems for you at that stage in your learning that it probably won't - leading to frustration.
I'd like one, but for me it would be an aid and a convenience.
As for the test strips and the pie shaped aid, use them first on important mid-tones in an image. If the print exposure that gives you good mid-tones gives you highlights or shadows you don't like, use separate small tests in those areas, and build up a map of how much exposure each such part may need. It is at that time you will get to practice burning and dodging - the most important printing techniques (IMHO).
And as for the Mr. Linden's wonderful f/stop timer? Sadly, Santa didn't come through for me this year, despite all my asking. I'll just have to continue using f/stop timing the manual way.

What he said^^^^
Most timers(all?) need a decent print in order to calibrate them. I sure don't know about the more expensive ones firsthand.
The kodak works OK but after a while the calibrated eyeball works very well.
Until then you could always cut the paper in half.

 

[tballphoto]

I have never used an exposure meter in the darkroom. I remember looking at them in the 1980s and deciding they were too expensive and only really useful for getting a ball park time for the initial print, and I still needed to make work prints to decide on contrast, dodging, burning, etc. Maybe they have been improved since then. Because I generally print full frame at only a couple of sizes, it didn't take long for me to know what my first exposure ought to be for a given film, format, paper, and print size, my negatives tending to be quite uniform. Perhaps I am just not sophisticated enough to benefit from them. I know quite a few people around here swear by them. I would recommend a novice go the test strip route first. There is plenty of time to acquire electronic aids in the future. Just so you don't think I am a Luddite, my enlarging timer is electronic. The first darkroom I worked in had a metronome. That worked too.

Reading the website for the darkroom automation meter, it makes it out as if you merely turn the enlarger on to focus mode, put in a negative, turn the meter on, put it under the enlarging lens, and it will use the blurry image to tell you what contrast to use, f stop on the enlarger lens, and all based on what preset brand and specific type of paper you select from its stored memory.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

/QUOTE]

...the darkroom automation meter ... will use the blurry image to tell you what contrast to use, f stop on the enlarger lens, and all based on what preset brand and specific type of paper you select from its stored memory.

Errrr, no.

First: where does this concept of 'blurry image' come from?

It may be a help if you describe what enlarger and lens you are using.

 

[Maris]

Back when I did volume printing for others I used a print meter. A 36 exposure roll could be hand printed in an hour. Using the (multiple?) test strip method would make the same job a long day's work. If anyone complained I could say "You got what was on the negative. Do you want a custom print?". For personal work in a non-commercial setting it was test strips all the way.

 

[tballphoto]

/QUOTE]


Errrr, no.

First: where does this concept of 'blurry image' come from?

It may be a help if you describe what enlarger and lens you are using.

HOW DO I USE ALL THIS IN THE DARKROOM?


You can use the meter in any way you desire: You can use it as a comparator as you would an Ilford EM-10 for quickly making 'drugstore prints' by varying the lens aperature to control exposure. You can scan for highlites and shadows as you would with a conventional enlarging meter/analyzer to find paper grade and exposure.

The procedure below is for producing a print that precisely matches your visualization. For most prints, however, you may follow only a few of the steps.

The first order of business is to select the paper - Ilford MGIV RC, Oriental G, MGIV WT etc.. Once the paper has been selected you need to determine the grade.

Determine paper grade:

Select two important areas of the negative and determine the tone for each area: for a straight brilliant print this would be either black/white or detail shadows/detail highlights; for a low key portrait this may be the desired skin tone and the black backround; for trees in the mist it may be the gray of the tree bark and the lighter gray of the mist.

Using the meter's Delta mode measure the intensity difference for these two spots.

Using a paper speed chart find the grade that has a paper speed difference for the two tones you selected that equals the meter’s intensity difference reading.

You have now selected the paper grade that will accurately fit the most important portion of your image. As mentioned above, these tones are often not the brightest and darkest points, though bright and dark work well for a first working print or 'drugstore prints'.

Determine exposure time:

Meter either the darker of the two tones above - or any other tone if desired - and look up the paper speed for that tone and the selected grade of paper.

Set the Darkroom Automation f-Stop Timer so the timer setting makes up the difference between the paper speed and the meter reading. If you are using another timer then Darkroom Automation provides timing charts for digital timers and f-Stop timing dials for analog timers.

You now have an exposure that will accurately reproduce the first tone and the paper grade that will cause the second tone to fall just where you want it.

Insert the paper and make the print.

got that here
Darkroom Automation Precision Enlarging Meter FAQ

Thats the big issue i think i am having, WTF do i do to determine correct contrast grade for a negative frame.. It why i asked this question here.

 

[AgX]

Hmmm.

For non-fstop plain-ole count down in seconds timers, per B&H website:

$398 GraLab 451 w/ footswitch
$370 CatLab w/ footswitch (does have some rudimentary f-stop feature)
$352 Beseler w/ footswitch
$238 Paterson 2000D
$58 - GraLab footswitch included in price above where needed

Darkroom Automation f-Stop Timer
$305 w/footswitch

From that I can only conclude that an f-Stop timer is the cheapest digital timer you can buy. Well, the Paterson is a bit cheaper, but no footswitch.

$105 Kaiser "Digital Timer" (footswitch N/A)
$113 Paterson 2000D (footswitch N/A)

listed over here , without VAT

 

[DREW WILEY]

Depends. If you develop a standardized workflow, darkroom meters can increase efficiency. I used em routinely back when I was printing Cibachrome, and for certain tasks still. I have several on hand, variously made by Zone VI, Gossen, and pricey ZBE. Glad I bought them. But since it is quite difficult to find any of these specific units anymore, that leaves a vacuum for innovation, for those who will benefit from darkroom meters or programmable timers. I can't comment on specific current units. But in general, different instruments have different personalities, and it's important to understand what they were specifically engineered to do. But I paid a lot more for each of my monitoring instruments way back when than the current price for the model in question.

That being said, I determine ALL my conventional black and white paper exposures with simple test strips, and not any instrumentation of all. Color printing is a more complex topic.