Pre washing film

[cliveh]

Are we talking black & white here or colour film, as I can see there is a clear case for pre-soak of colour film, re temperature characteristics. However, for monochrome I have never pre-soaked a film and don't intend to start now.

 

[BMbikerider]

In response to the previous post, I was refering to both colour and Mono.

My thoughts as given on the previous page lay out my reasons for never pre soaking. With the JOBO rotary used for colour I load the film before filling the processor with water and stand the tank in the water. As the water warms up taking perhaps an hour for it to reach the correct temp and stabilise; the tank also warms up at the same time, so avoiding the need to pre-soak to get the emulsion up to the correct temp.

 

[MattKing]

Exactly MattKing!, but Why is that “awkwardly for film” and “clearly for developer”? Because there are other factors involved with them, both for film and developers, there are different reasons for different films (structure) and for different developers (formulation & dilution)

No - it is the wording that is awkward in the Film Fact sheets, but clear in the Developer Fact sheets. The clarity in the Developer Fact sheets comes from the fact that the reference to a pre-rinse is clearly only made in reference to rotary agitation. In the Film Fact sheets, it is not all that clear whether the reference to a pre-rinse is made only with respect to rotary agitation, or generally.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, all I can say is that I have been doing it for nearly 70 years professionally and as a profession, and it works for me. But as I always say "do what works for you".

PE

 

[kobaltus]

Well, all I can say is that I have been doing it for nearly 70 years professionally and as a profession, and it works for me. But as I always say "do what works for you".

PE

Pre soak works for me too , and from The negative, page 206, for Ansel Adams also.

But we have been living in the dark era without quick iphone access to deep knowledge about analog photography.

 

[LAG]

I entirely agree with this post above. Whilst not 70 years, I can lay claim to 57 for developing. My thinking about pre-soak is that the emulsion is now wet and can result in streaks or uneven development, simply because the developer when introduced will have to contend with water that is already there in unknown quantities. There is no way we can ensure the water pre soak is even and may be worse following the draining when more water may remain in some areas. This will slow down the development process in those areas if the water - the pre wet is not evenly distributed. It will become more apparent if the development time is short…

Here, the failure is in the way you "pre-wash", not the pre-wash decision itself, is not about what the water, nor the film nor what the developer will do. Have you never considered (in your 57 for developing), doing a pre-wash in a separate place?

...Because of this I wish that C41 was longer than the standard 3mins 15 secs, I would feel happier, although I have not had a serious problem.

But you can change that standard time, can’t you?

Jobo & Tetenal recommend …

No offence intended, but in addition to all those recommendations … you should be able to take your own decision. Of course, based on your own experience and at the same time on the motivation or interest you have in finding out what happens if you follow that suggestions … and by not doing so (whether they are right or wrong).

... I figure Ilford know their onions and for most occasions they will have tested more than anybody. But the same thing applies to Jobo and I guess they tested their equipment far more than Ilford did. And when there were complaints, I'm guessing Jobo bore the brunt and tested accordingly.

That’s one of the reasons they “recommend”…

…there is always more than one way to do things…

And here you have said another one

…amd the internet makes experts of everybody.

No doubt about it, and I would like to take this opportunity to ask this questions for those experts:

For instance, I have made my own developer at home, and I am using e.g. Ilford HP5, should I pre-wash the film?, Why? … Now, let’s suppose that I have decided to process the same film with the same developer but only with time & temperature and no agitation at all (what you call a “stand”), and I will use a 1:400 dilution, should I pre-wash the film?, Why? And what does Ilford has to say or recommend?

Let’s change now HP5 for Across (non Ilford) with Ilford’s Microphen instead of my homemade dev, to do all the above mentioned again, Should I pre-wash the film?, Why?

Let’s do another and final change, Ilford’s Microphen instead of my homemade dev, and let’s go back to Ilford’s HP5 again (so everything Ilford) but instead of 68F, I will do it at 100F, should I pre-wash the film?, Why?

Etc, etc … should you find the same answer for all those questions, let me know.

...Possibly other factors...

Yes

Are we talking black & white here or colour film, as I can see there is a clear case for pre-soak of colour film, re temperature characteristics. However, for monochrome I have never pre-soaked a film and don't intend to start now.

Your intention is perhaps a logical position, but highly respectable Cliveh, though I assume that you have processed your B&W and Colour films only (with the temperatures) by the book. There are many other ways and with different needs.

No - it is the wording that is awkward in the Film Fact sheets, but clear in the Developer Fact sheets. The clarity in the Developer Fact sheets comes from the fact that the reference to a pre-rinse is clearly only made in reference to rotary agitation. In the Film Fact sheets, it is not all that clear whether the reference to a pre-rinse is made only with respect to rotary agitation, or generally.

Dear MattKing

No offense, but I think I have stated clearly what I wanted to say about Ilford’s recommendations, I also think I have stated clearly not only that I have read those sheets, but many others sheets/books before talking about Ilford's (clear and unclear, in one way or another) recommendations. And finally, I think that the question here is not about the wording but about those suggestions. If you want to talk about grammar, that should be in another thread.

Regards

Well, all I can say is that I have been doing it for nearly 70 years professionally and as a profession, and it works for me. But as I always say "do what works for you".


PE

No offense, but for those who before you, took the argument saying “I have been doing for 70, or 57” or like you now also saying “70 years” I always have another argument against “Is not the same having 70 years of experience, than one year repeated 70 times”

I am not saying that is your case, nor them. But that kind of argument doesn’t mean anything to me and in my humble opinion, of course, after all those years, those sentences, sound even more strange.

 

[klownshed]

No offence intended, but in addition to all those recommendations … you should be able to take your own decision

Should I? Thank you. It's very kind of you to let me know.

I have decided to marinate all my film in Soy sauce (light not dark, I'm not an idiot!), Sesame oil and ginger for a week. The Asian marinade concentrates the Zen quality of my negatives so much better than Western methods ever could.

Other marinades are available. I hear the Texans swear by BBQ sauce.

 

[LAG]

Should I? Thank you. It's very kind of you to let me know

You are welcome!

...I have decided to marinate all my film in Soy sauce (light not dark, I'm not an idiot!), Sesame oil and ginger for a week. The Asian marinade concentrates the Zen quality of my negatives so much better than Western methods ever could.

Other marinades are available. I hear the Texans swear by BBQ sauce.

At least, it's your decision, not following other's. Good for you!

 

[darkroommike]

Back on topic, there are good reasons to presoak and just as good reasons to not presoak.

• I've never found it to be necessary to presoak when processing black and white and if Ilford says don't, then don't.
• If the folks that make your third party black and white developer recommend a presoak, then do it, it won't hurt a thing.

I presoak when processing color film and find it a more reliable way to get the drum, film and reels up to processing temperature. I have tried the Unicolor "drift by" recommendation and the outcome is variable using their own UniDrum since the necessary elevated initial developer temp changes with the number of films you put in the drum. I found that Jobo's recommendation for a presoak works very well. The old Imagemaker by King Concept (no relation) was a different beast and used a hot air pre wash to get the drum, etc. up to processing temp, it worked well.

My own experience has also led to the conclusion that not all films benefit from the short one minute presoak time that is usually recommended, some black and white films need a long to much longer presoak, using a longer presoak (or none at all!) seems the better options. I recommend a long 5 minute presoak for TMax films most other black and white films require only 1-2 minutes.

 

[klownshed]

I found that Jobo's recommendation for a presoak works very well.

Jobo don't recommend a pre-soak for colour film (E6 and C41), they recommend a pre-warm (heat the drum in the processor without water). They recommend a 5' pre-rinse for B&W film.

But as has pretty much been established, there is evidence on both sides of the rinse debate that either method can work. The curious thing about it that those that rinse do so as not rinsing causes uneven development and those that don't rinse do so as rinsing causing uneven development.

 

[darkroommike]

Jobo don't recommend a pre-soak for colour film (E6 and C41), they recommend a pre-warm (heat the drum in the processor without water). They recommend a 5' pre-rinse for B&W film.

But as has pretty much been established, there is evidence on both sides of the rinse debate that either method can work. The curious thing about it that those that rinse do so as not rinsing causes uneven development and those that don't rinse do so as rinsing causing uneven development.

Well you're right and I'm right. The Jobo Journal of Rotary Processing often said that if you are using the presoak for color and it works for you then don't stop using it, and since I use a Unicolor tank instead of a Jobo processor the presoak works very well for me, and is recommended in the Unicolor K2 C-41 kit instructions for their drums. If you don't have the link to the journals you can find some of them (at least 1-24 maybe more) here... http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/archive/JQ24.pdf

 

[klownshed]

if you are using the presoak for color and it works for you then don't stop using it

That's the moral of this particular story.

Use what works for you. If you are having problems, then it's time to revisit your methods, otherwise stick to the plan, Stan.

 

[Vaughn]

...The curious thing about it that those that rinse do so as not rinsing causes uneven development and those that don't rinse do so as rinsing causing uneven development.

Just shows that there are ways to acheive even development with or without a pre-developer water soak/bath/rinse....just as there are ways to get uneven development with or without a pre-developer water soak/bath/rinse. ;o)

 

[DREW WILEY]

The object is to equalize the heat INSIDE the drum. Since plastic is basically an insulator, merely hoping that the drum is correctly warmed in a short amount of time by revolving in a water bath simply isn't realistic. This is offset to some degree if the chemical bottles themselves have reached temp equilibrium. But some processes are fussy in this respect. RA4 can experience color shifts. I even have one device with a built-on ambient temp air calculator. Simply pouring the chemicals in can reduce their temp. Or water sloshing over the surface of the drum can act almost like a swamp cooler. If in doubt, it's a good idea to measure the chem temp both prior to use and immediately after it is drained out, to see if there is a difference.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Magenta is not a color!

PE

 

[pentaxuser]

Magenta is not a color!

PE

Wow" Haven't events in the U.S. over the last 24 hours been traumatic enough without adding to it by this statement

pentaxuser

 

[DREW WILEY]

Magenta is a hue, same as my eyeballs after last nite!

 

[Photo Engineer]

That's the moral of this particular story.

Use what works for you. If you are having problems, then it's time to revisit your methods, otherwise stick to the plan, Stan.

See my post above. I have been saying "use what works for you for many many years". OTOH, I offer alternatives when what you do does not work, or does not work properly.

I have probably processed or supervised the processing of more film and paper than any 10 APUG users, perhaps more, in my lifetime. My budget for color paper alone in 1962 was $50M. That was at the Cape. My budget for film or paper at EK was essentially unlimited. I could coat my own if needed, and we got free film, prints and processing anyhow.

When I do give advice, do some of you somehow think I don't know what I'm talking about?

I say again, "Magenta isn't a color"!

PE

 

[DREW WILEY]

What about "green". It seems to be a "color" even more related to quantitative film and paper use!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Drew, that was a "mantra" a few years ago!

PE

 

[mshchem]

The object is to equalize the heat INSIDE the drum. Since plastic is basically an insulator, merely hoping that the drum is correctly warmed in a short amount of time by revolving in a water bath simply isn't realistic. This is offset to some degree if the chemical bottles themselves have reached temp equilibrium. But some processes are fussy in this respect. RA4 can experience color shifts. I even have one device with a built-on ambient temp air calculator. Simply pouring the chemicals in can reduce their temp. Or water sloshing over the surface of the drum can act almost like a swamp cooler. If in doubt, it's a good idea to measure the chem temp both prior to use and immediately after it is drained out, to see if there is a difference.

I totally agree about the temperature . One other thing , if you use a lift that's at 20 C while processing color at 38 C, with the small volumes required with Jobo tanks you could have a pretty significant temperature drop certainly more than 0.3 C recommended for color developer .
I pre wash number 1 reason is temperature . 2nd reason this has worked very well for me , I also like to see the pink water very rewarding . but like PE says whatever process you feel gives you what you want , Who am I to judge
Best Regards Mike

 

[Craig]

I could coat my own if needed, and we got free film, prints and processing anyhow.
PE

That's quite the job perk! I'd be cutting my own 8x10 Kodachrome I have had the chance to make some Ilfochrome prints from 5x7 Kodachromes from the late 40's; they were things of beauty.

 

[Terry Breedlove]

I used to but now my water is so ugly I have stopped and to be honest I see no difference.

 

[Ozxplorer]

Using the same batch of filtered water as that used for mixing the chemistry I usually rinse my tank to equalise the chemistry/tank temperature plus I believe it helps to flush the tank interior of dust prior to development. This works for me... Fred

 

[klownshed]

When I do give advice, do some of you somehow think I don't know what I'm talking about?

Certainly not me. I think if you review my posts you will see it was not I that was disrespectful to you!

I find this forum one of the most frustrating I've ever visited. I've said this before, but the reason I'm still here is because you and many others have much to offer and do so willingly and courteously, and your advice and experience is much appreciated.

But there are lots of "Little Miss Contraries" in almost every post contradicting good advice and swinging their "enlargers" around in a "who has the biggest equipment" competition. If I wanted an argument I'd post an Android versus iPhone post on a tech forum... This forum doesn't feel like the right place for this attitude to me but ironically is exactly where I find it most!

I do hope I haven't come across as a little Miss Contrary myself! ;-)