No - it is the wording that is awkward in the Film Fact sheets, but clear in the Developer Fact sheets. The clarity in the Developer Fact sheets comes from the fact that the reference to a pre-rinse is clearly only made in reference to rotary agitation. In the Film Fact sheets, it is not all that clear whether the reference to a pre-rinse is made only with respect to rotary agitation, or generally.Exactly MattKing!, but Why is that “awkwardly for film” and “clearly for developer”? Because there are other factors involved with them, both for film and developers, there are different reasons for different films (structure) and for different developers (formulation & dilution)
Well, all I can say is that I have been doing it for nearly 70 years professionally and as a profession, and it works for me. But as I always say "do what works for you".
PE
I entirely agree with this post above. Whilst not 70 years, I can lay claim to 57 for developing. My thinking about pre-soak is that the emulsion is now wet and can result in streaks or uneven development, simply because the developer when introduced will have to contend with water that is already there in unknown quantities. There is no way we can ensure the water pre soak is even and may be worse following the draining when more water may remain in some areas. This will slow down the development process in those areas if the water - the pre wet is not evenly distributed. It will become more apparent if the development time is short…
...Because of this I wish that C41 was longer than the standard 3mins 15 secs, I would feel happier, although I have not had a serious problem.
Jobo & Tetenal recommend …
... I figure Ilford know their onions and for most occasions they will have tested more than anybody. But the same thing applies to Jobo and I guess they tested their equipment far more than Ilford did. And when there were complaints, I'm guessing Jobo bore the brunt and tested accordingly.
…there is always more than one way to do things…
…amd the internet makes experts of everybody.
...Possibly other factors...
Are we talking black & white here or colour film, as I can see there is a clear case for pre-soak of colour film, re temperature characteristics. However, for monochrome I have never pre-soaked a film and don't intend to start now.
No - it is the wording that is awkward in the Film Fact sheets, but clear in the Developer Fact sheets. The clarity in the Developer Fact sheets comes from the fact that the reference to a pre-rinse is clearly only made in reference to rotary agitation. In the Film Fact sheets, it is not all that clear whether the reference to a pre-rinse is made only with respect to rotary agitation, or generally.
Well, all I can say is that I have been doing it for nearly 70 years professionally and as a profession, and it works for me. But as I always say "do what works for you".
PE
No offence intended, but in addition to all those recommendations … you should be able to take your own decision
Should I? Thank you. It's very kind of you to let me know
...I have decided to marinate all my film in Soy sauce (light not dark, I'm not an idiot!), Sesame oil and ginger for a week. The Asian marinade concentrates the Zen quality of my negatives so much better than Western methods ever could.
Other marinades are available. I hear the Texans swear by BBQ sauce.
I found that Jobo's recommendation for a presoak works very well.
Jobo don't recommend a pre-soak for colour film (E6 and C41), they recommend a pre-warm (heat the drum in the processor without water). They recommend a 5' pre-rinse for B&W film.
But as has pretty much been established, there is evidence on both sides of the rinse debate that either method can work. The curious thing about it that those that rinse do so as not rinsing causes uneven development and those that don't rinse do so as rinsing causing uneven development.
if you are using the presoak for color and it works for you then don't stop using it
Just shows that there are ways to acheive even development with or without a pre-developer water soak/bath/rinse....just as there are ways to get uneven development with or without a pre-developer water soak/bath/rinse. ;o)...The curious thing about it that those that rinse do so as not rinsing causes uneven development and those that don't rinse do so as rinsing causing uneven development.
Wow" Haven't events in the U.S. over the last 24 hours been traumatic enough without adding to it by this statementMagenta is not a color!
PE
That's the moral of this particular story.
Use what works for you. If you are having problems, then it's time to revisit your methods, otherwise stick to the plan, Stan.
I totally agree about the temperature . One other thing , if you use a lift that's at 20 C while processing color at 38 C, with the small volumes required with Jobo tanks you could have a pretty significant temperature drop certainly more than 0.3 C recommended for color developer .The object is to equalize the heat INSIDE the drum. Since plastic is basically an insulator, merely hoping that the drum is correctly warmed in a short amount of time by revolving in a water bath simply isn't realistic. This is offset to some degree if the chemical bottles themselves have reached temp equilibrium. But some processes are fussy in this respect. RA4 can experience color shifts. I even have one device with a built-on ambient temp air calculator. Simply pouring the chemicals in can reduce their temp. Or water sloshing over the surface of the drum can act almost like a swamp cooler. If in doubt, it's a good idea to measure the chem temp both prior to use and immediately after it is drained out, to see if there is a difference.
I could coat my own if needed, and we got free film, prints and processing anyhow.
PE
When I do give advice, do some of you somehow think I don't know what I'm talking about?
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