Possible New Version of Harman Phoenix Coming Soon?

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koraks

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To be fair he said 'I [...] suspect'.

Well, he said 'strongly suspect'. And that implies that there's some background to this apparently 'strong' suspicion.

industry insights (do you have any connection with the industry? Can you disclose these connections for us?)
I've posted many times on this forum on the fact that I've had some talks with Fuji on their paper business & technology and that I can derive one or two things about product R&D complexity from those talks. I also have a professional background in innovation management. Based on that as well as what I've picked up on the analog photo industry & tech in general over the years (to cut a long story short), I lean towards the interpretation of @Lachlan Young instead of the IMO overly optimistic reading of the marketing message that @dcy quoted. In particular, that message included the following bit:
Additional hours of work and weeks of preparation later and voilà, the orange base was born yielding even better results when scanned in the Lab!
Full masking in a CN film would take a heck of a lot more R&D than what could be crammed into 'hours of work' and 'weeks of preparation'. You'd likely be looking at an effort of at least several months, or more realistically over a year, for a small but dedicated team of R&D staff. I think Harman's progress on this front is indicative of what's realistic in terms of the pace of new product development.
 

MattKing

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They probably slapped some orange into it - much like sandwiching a negative with a piece of unexposed and developed film - and called it a huge improvement.
If they did that, labs would probably do a bit better job with it, even though none of the image variable dye behavior improvements would be present.
Pardon the cynicism.
 

BHuij

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I didn't dislike Phoenix I when I tried a couple of rolls out, but it didn't excite me enough to shoot it more consistently. Perhaps I didn't give it a fair shake since I developed it in ECN-2 chemistry rather than C-41. It scanned fine. But it was pretty grainy and the dynamic range seemed very limited. I did rather like the colors I got. Unique but not so strange as to be "gimmicky" like Lomo Turquoise or something. I rarely shoot color negative at all, but when I do, I tend to go for Vision3 250D, Gold 200, or ProImage 100.

Never did try it in 120, I'd probably have liked that better than the 35mm. I also suspect I would have been better off shooting at 100 or 125 instead of box speed.

But I really do want to support Harman, and I live walking distance from the FIND Lab here in Provo, so I'll definitely pick up a few rolls to try out. With a little luck they'll have it in stock and ready to sell me tomorrow afternoon. Probably run one through my half frame, and probably try a roll through my 6x6 TLR.

I also saw that guy here who was getting surprisingly great results developing Phoenix I as transparencies. IIRC he had to shoot it at something like 16 ISO to get the best results. But that could be a fun thing to experiment with.

Edit:

FWIW, I just called the FIND lab to confirm they would have some Phoenix II ready to go tomorrow, and they did, so I'll be picking some up to try, probably in both formats. The guy couldn't tell me much since they're presumably still under embargo/NDA, but he said they've shot a bunch of it, and he strongly prefers it to Phoenix I. Specifically he said the dynamic range is markedly better, and that the colors seemed balanced better.

I'll be very interested to try it out!
 
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koraks

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Please feel free to share. Otherwise dcy's conjectures are exactly as good as yours.

To expand a bit on what I said earlier, here's how I see it. And I invite people with more in-depth knowledge such as@Lachlan Young, @laser and @Henning Serger to rectify my conjectures where they miss the mark.

Firstly, when it comes to masking, I see generally 3 ways in which this could be done:
1: Just add an orange color to the emulsion. Doesn't matter how or what; as long as it sort of looks orange like regular CN film, it's OK.
2: Add a static (i.e. not image-density dependent) orange mask to the emulsion that's intended to compensate to an extent for the imperfections of the image-forming dyes. The density of this mask would have to be a compromise based on e.g. average image density in a typical frame.
3: Add an image-wise mask that effectively compensates for the image-forming dye imperfections, in a dynamic (so image density-dependent) way. This would require a chemical mechanism that destroys or prevents formation of the masking dyes where image density is formed.

1 & 2 are relatively simple and along the lines of what @MattKing suggests above.

I honestly don't expect that any self-respecting manufacturer would actually do (1), but I include it anyway because it's pretty much the only way I can see a company could include a new masking approach in a CN film using only 'hours' of R&D work and 'weeks' of lead time to a functional product. But I think it's a far-fetched hypothesis even for InovisCoat as this would really constitute nothing more than a cosmetic 'improvement', although it may help in nudging automated minilab scanners a little more in the right direction w.r.t. color balancing. This could be as simple as taking any old dyes, preferably somewhat stable, regardless of their actual spectral characteristics, and mix them to produce an orange/brown hue that's reminiscent of regular CN film.

#2 is a reasonably realistic approach and I guess that it has been done before or is currently being done. It's a nice intermediate step towards true masking as described in #3 and would make an actual improvement (at least in the chosen 'sweet spot' of the HD curves) in hue purity. Technologically it's only a little more complex than #1, but it does of course bring the challenge of selecting a dye system that will effectively compensate for the hue impurities of the image-forming dyes - so not just about any set of dyes would do, as would be the case in #1. This likely also starts to bring issues with potential patent infringement (and both Kodak and Fuji, who hold large portfolios of patent, are very much alive and capable of litigation), so considerable time may have to be spent in determining a solution that will (a) work and (b) not set off the legal depts of the big guys. So overall, this will be more time-consuming and costly than #1.

The end goal of course is always #3, in which any number of gradations of complexity can probably be discerned, depending on how perfect the compensation will need to be (think about measures taken to affect toe and shoulder behavior and maintain perfect tracking also in those parts of the curve). Evidently, R&D expenditure is pretty massive, as is evidenced by the time it took the big guys to work it out in the 1950-60s (or whenever they approached this point), but also by the pace at which Harman is progressing with their color product (unless someone is cynical enough to believe they have already cracked that nut and are now milking a long series of half-way house intermediate prototypes.) We know for a fact that Harman is employing several people on their color development. They have a whole set of challenges on their plates, of course - but hey, so does Ino/Filmotec.

So based on technical complexity, it's unlikely that either #2 or let alone #3 would be feasible in response to a single customer pestering Filmotec for a bit and waving a modest amount of cash in their general direction. Looking at things from that end, we could make some haphazard quantitative assumptions and see how the numbers would work out. Keep in mind we're not talking about Kodak and Fuji here, so production batch sizes will likely be a heck of a lot smaller. Let's say an initial market-oriented production batch would be, ah, wild guess, 50k rolls for this new Orwo 200 product. Let's also say that for the purpose of this incremental development of the product, around $0.50 per roll would be made available for R&D expenditure (which I think is rather on the very generous side). This would mean an R&D budget of $25k. You can't do all that much for that kind of money. Put a chemical engineer into a well-equipped lab and he'll burn through $1k/day easily in brut wages, cost of capital, materials etc. That means 20 days of work plus a little administrative overhead, and at that point nobody in the R&D chain has made any money off of the thing except 'Bernd the Dipl. Ing' who goes home with a decent but still modest salary. You can't do all that much in 20 days - maybe, if you're very lucky, #1. But only downhill with the wind in your back and looking at the end product with not too critical a QA focus. So also from that end, things don't really look in favor of "yes, dear customer, we will make you a properly masked film out of nowhere in little to no time at all."

In all likelihood, reality was a combination of (1) something in along the lines of fairly rudimentary masking, potentially based on 1950-60s Agfa technology, and (2) incorporation of this technology that was already started on some years ago by the people behind InovisCoat, who now saw an opportunity start recouping some of the (sunk, in bankruptcies) costs of those developments in a marketable product.

So that's the conjecture from my end, which I think is fairly close to what @Lachlan Young proposed. I wouldn't call the above a 'strong suspicion' - I'd really call it a wild guess based on a very informal paper napkin exercise. And I think that this exercise already blows pretty big holes in a 'strong suspicion' that was put forth earlier. Which indeed I approached critically, because before doing the paper napkin approach, I had a feeling of "that doesn't sound quite right".

I'll very happily stand corrected on any of the above - and I really mean that. It'd be cool if people could add and rectify to my wild guess based on more firm knowledge of the technology as well as the micro-economics involved.
 

albireo

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Well, whatever we may think of Harman and Inoviscoat, what we have achieved is that we have amassed enough new material for a new groundbreaking Netflix soap-opera miniseries.

The drama; the mystery; the evil chemistry wizard of Bad Saarow; the missing coating heads - it's all there in spades. Call the producers. 'The Orange Mask'. Out now.
 

Lachlan Young

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@koraks I think the situation is more that Inoviscoat has the know-how to make a fully functional image-wise mask, but cannot do so on the films they are currently coating either because they lack the internal kilo lab synthesis capacity to do so, the necessary cash to get external sources to do it, and/ or the resources to dedicate to R&D on making more effective coloured couplers. They might have chosen to make a compromise that delivers adequate results with scanning, but which is significantly less costly to make, enabling some cash flow to spend on the R&D.

Harman have had to start from the opposite direction, but with the benefit of kilo scale synchem resources that Inoviscoat/ Orwo currently seem to lack (and Harman seems to be running about as fast as it's probably possible to go). I will be interested to see how much masking they have achieved, and if they're aiming to get one set of coloured couplers good, then add the other. The leaked preview images suggest that they may be heading that way. I'll also be interested to see if Kentmere 200 has a relationship with the new version of Phoenix.
 

BHuij

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@koraks I think the situation is more that Inoviscoat has the know-how to make a fully functional image-wise mask, but cannot do so on the films they are currently coating either because they lack the internal kilo lab synthesis capacity to do so, the necessary cash to get external sources to do it, and/ or the resources to dedicate to R&D on making more effective coloured couplers. They might have chosen to make a compromise that delivers adequate results with scanning, but which is significantly less costly to make, enabling some cash flow to spend on the R&D.

Harman have had to start from the opposite direction, but with the benefit of kilo scale synchem resources that Inoviscoat/ Orwo currently seem to lack (and Harman seems to be running about as fast as it's probably possible to go). I will be interested to see how much masking they have achieved, and if they're aiming to get one set of coloured couplers good, then add the other. The leaked preview images suggest that they may be heading that way. I'll also be interested to see if Kentmere 200 has a relationship with the new version of Phoenix.

When I pick my Phoenix II up tomorrow afternoon, I will laugh really hard if the base is still mustard yellow and the improvements they made were only to the emulsion, with no movement towards better masking :D
 

dcy

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The problem with this statement is that it appears to be a suspicion based on nothing else but an axiomatic assumption that this is how it must have been going. There's no technical analysis underlying it, no clear model of how film emulsion R&D works nor any industry insight. It's really just conjecture of the most informal kind. Mind you, that's perfectly fine as it is, but let's call a spade a spade. It's just a wild guess.

As @albireo said, I wrote "I suspect..." and there is nothing axiomatic about that. What I wrote *is* speculation and it was clearly marked as such. No need to say "let's call a spade a spade" when I was upfront about the fact that this is a conjecture and I gave the reasons behind that conjecture.
 

dcy

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Well, he said 'strongly suspect'. And that implies that there's some background to this apparently 'strong' suspicion.

Saying that I "strongly suspect" something does not suggest inside knowledge. I gave the reasons for my speculation. I personally find them persuasive and I am allowed to say so. I never asked anyone to take my word for it. I gave my reasons and everyone can decide whether they find them persuasive.
 

thinkbrown

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When I pick my Phoenix II up tomorrow afternoon, I will laugh really hard if the base is still mustard yellow and the improvements they made were only to the emulsion, with no movement towards better masking :D

I'm not sure I care about the masking TBH. if Phoenix 2 had the same "color science" for lack of a better term but more dynamic range and finer grain I'd be thrilled
 

dcy

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I honestly don't expect that any self-respecting manufacturer would actually do (1), but I include it anyway because it's pretty much the only way I can see a company could include a new masking approach in a CN film using only 'hours' of R&D work and 'weeks' of lead time to a functional product. But I think it's a far-fetched hypothesis even for InovisCoat as this would really constitute nothing more than a cosmetic 'improvement',

The product was delayed by about 1 year. I think a good starting point is to think of what sorts of things could be accomplished in about a year of effort. Optik's suggestion that is was hours of work is in conflict with their claim that they had to go back to Inno several times to get them to do it. I suspect that Optik was being imprecise when they said "hours". The way I see it, we have three data points:

1) A 1-year delay.
2) Optik's claim that it took hours of work.
3) Optik's claim that they had to pester Inno multiple times.

I think (1) and (3) are consistent with each other, and (2) is probably lazy writing --- "Hey! 1,800 hours of work IS hours".



So that's the conjecture from my end, which I think is fairly close to what @Lachlan Young proposed. I wouldn't call the above a 'strong suspicion' - I'd really call it a wild guess based on a very informal paper napkin exercise. And I think that this exercise already blows pretty big holes in a 'strong suspicion' that was put forth earlier. Which indeed I approached critically, because before doing the paper napkin approach, I had a feeling of "that doesn't sound quite right".

No need to get worked up over me saying "strong suspicion". Furthermore, I think that what you wrote supports my speculation. You made a case that even doing #1 in its entirety is not feasible and yet no self-respecting company would do just #1. You made the case that InovisCoat must be incorporating technology that was already started years ago and they now saw a chance to recoup some of the cost. ---- Reading this strengthens my suspicion that Metropolois, Orwo NC400/500, Color '92, and Orwo NC200 are not wholly independent efforts but form a lineage where Inno tries to figure out how to make a functioning CN film with the tools and financial constraints they have.
 

Lachlan Young

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I'm not sure I care about the masking TBH. if Phoenix 2 had the same "color science" for lack of a better term but more dynamic range and finer grain I'd be thrilled

More usable dynamic range = masking. Harman have the ability to make any contrast gradient of emulsion they want. The gradients of the component emulsions in Phoenix are not arbitrary. They were intended to correct out to the right places when the masking (and the density it brings) is added.

Finer granularity is where additional emulsions come into play to deliver a better range of dispersity of grain sizes.
 

Craig

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At what point they decided they could spin a redscale product off of this - your guess is as good as mine. There's a good chance that even within Harman they're not exactly sure who came up with it first and when it happened exactly.
Perhaps I'm old fashioned as I learned photography when film was all there was, why would I want a film that is only red?
 

koraks

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The product was delayed by about 1 year.

Look at it from the other end and try to spread out 1 year's worth of R&D onto the production size of a batch that the customer (Cosmo) could financially commit to. You'll find out that there's no way they would have been able to have afforded it. It literally doesn't add up. 1 year's worth of R&D equates at the very least around $100k. That would have to be discounted into the product, with the other cost drivers adding up to it - rental of the manufacturing plant (Polaroid's), raw materials, packaging materials, labor not covered in the deal with Polaroid, project overhead, logistics. It would have become a very, very expensive roll of film for the end user. It isn't, so we can deduce the R&D must have been limited.

You made the case that InovisCoat must be incorporating technology that was already started years ago and they now saw a chance to recoup some of the cost.
That's ONE possibility. They simply cannot have done a lot of dedicated R&D for this particular product because neither the time, nor the financials work out that way. That's what a paper napkin exercise shows. See also @Lachlan Young's thoughts on these, although I would wager to say that the financial bottleneck may not be related entirely to synthesis.

What I want to add to the discussion is not so much a criticism about a 'strong suspicion' (heck, you could call it a nugget of knowledge passed down by a deity for all I care), but to place a bit of a foundation underneath speculation of this kind. Why? Because that makes the conjecture kind of interesting; it helps opening the black box. That's IMO pretty much the only reason why discussing these kinds of suspicions makes some (a little) sense.
 

Agulliver

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Perhaps I'm old fashioned as I learned photography when film was all there was, why would I want a film that is only red?

It doesn't interest me either but we should be aware that in the digital age, the end goal of film photography is not always to produce a realistic photograph that closely resembles what the photographer saw through the viewfinder. The red and purple films genuinely do weird and sometimes wonderful things that may well make photos look like the flight sequence in Magical Mystery Tour....but that's the point.

A young friend the other day sent me her photos shot on Lomography Purple and I have to admit that beach and mountain shots had a certain "je ne sais quois" about them which is aesthetically pleasing while in no way are the colours true to life.

For those who do like the red scale films, which again do something specific that looks pleasing (in an artistic way) for certain scenes....Harman Red actually does it better than anything else on the market.

I'm mulling over buying some Phoenix II in 120 this afternoon.
 
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