Possible light for cyanotype?

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Adam W

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Hi,

I'm looking at trying out cyanotypes and considering my UV-source options. I want to keep the costs down as much as possible and I have very little electronics experience. Will these bulbs work if I can figure out how to wire up an array? I'm thinking a grid of 4x3 or 5x3 to use with 8x10inch paper.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/60-W-Equivalent-Black-Spiral-Blacklight-Cfl-Decorative-Light-Bulb/50038868

60 W Equivalent Black Spiral Blacklight Cfl Decorative Light Bulb
822985510363.jpg


Thanks,

Adam
 

williaty

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No. That's a purple light bulb with just barely enough near-UV to make white things light up a little. Just use the blacklight linear fluorescent tubes people told you about in the other thread. I even included part numbers for you there.
 

TheToadMen

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Or you just buy a second hand facial tanning machine (don't know what these are called inn english??) for $10 and make a small wooden box to carry it - with the bulbs facing down. These machines come in several sizes.
gezichtsbruiner-philips-pb172.jpg
 

Tetium

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Adam, with this kind of bulb you won’t be able to properly expose your work.
Theses bulbs are made for ambiance, there is not much UV wavelength at the out.

You live in SF right ? - So I think the sun is your cheapest option to begin with cyanotype.
After that, TheToadMen gave you a good tip above.
 

nmp

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They should work fine. It is designated as BL bulb but it looks like a BLB, the same kind I made my UV box with:

https://www.amazon.com/Satco-S7277-Spiral-Color-Blacklight/dp/B003U674VO

Much more expensive than the Lowe's item (I can't remember why I didn't check Lowe's first.)

You can check it by buying one and doing a test before hand by plugging it in a table lamp or something and exposing a small piece of your sensitized paper with it.
 
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Adam W

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No. That's a purple light bulb with just barely enough near-UV to make white things light up a little. Just use the blacklight linear fluorescent tubes people told you about in the other thread. I even included part numbers for you there.

Thanks for the reply. However, I think you may have mistaken me for someone else. This is the first post about the topic I've made, so I'm not sure what other thread you're talking about.
 
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Adam W

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Or you just buy a second hand facial tanning machine (don't know what these are called inn english??) for $10 and make a small wooden box to carry it - with the bulbs facing down. These machines come in several sizes.
View attachment 169164
Thanks, Bert. That would be easiest, but those are selling for significantly more than US$10 on eBay. More like US$80-120.
 
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Adam W

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Adam, with this kind of bulb you won’t be able to properly expose your work.
Theses bulbs are made for ambiance, there is not much UV wavelength at the out.

You live in SF right ? - So I think the sun is your cheapest option to begin with cyanotype.
After that, TheToadMen gave you a good tip above.

Yes, thanks, I suspected those bulbs wouldn't give out enough UV, but the price was seductive.

I know the sun is the cheapest option, but this is the wrong time of year in SF for lots of hours of dependable sunshine. I was hoping to have a UV source that was more consistent and available at night.
 

Hexavalent

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I've used CFC blacklights with great success, though not all of them may be created equal. For small (4X5) cyanos, carbon, VDK, just one CFC will do in a pinch.

The light output of a spiral CFC is not nearly as even as that of a linear (tube) fluorescent. This makes them unsuitable for large prints.
 

pdeeh

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if I can make cyanos in the midst of a murky UK winter using just sky light, i reckon someone in soCAl ought to be able to also
 

nmp

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The light output of a spiral CFC is not nearly as even as that of a linear (tube) fluorescent. This makes them unsuitable for large prints.
I worried about the same before building mine (12x16 box with 18 bulbs) but from my tests on a 11x14 frame I found very little spatial variation. I have not used it for cyanotypes or for any of the other processes mentioned - so far only for Centennial POP and a little bit of salt prints. The typical exposures have been 20-25 minutes to achieve the Dmax. It does get hot like hell, probably putting that many bulbs in the small space was an overkill. Might need an exhaust fan if I ever want to do more than a couple exposures in a day. If I ever built a bigger one, I would look into building with LED's like this one that presumably should be cooler than CFL's:

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Hexavalent

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... It does get hot like hell, probably putting that many bulbs in the small space was an overkill. Might need an exhaust fan if I ever want to do more than a couple exposures in a day....

CFLs mounted "socket up" produce uneven light for the first few minutes after startup. With long exposures, this isn't such a problem as the illumation evens as the bulbs heat up.

As you mention, they do get hot - each bulb has it's own ballast crammed inside the screw base, where as tubular fluorescent bulbs have external ballasts that run much cooler. Note regarding UV leds: read the specs very carefully - the cheap ones on Ebay, although called "UV" actually have very poor output in the 360 nm range.
 

nmp

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CFLs mounted "socket up" produce uneven light for the first few minutes after startup. With long exposures, this isn't such a problem as the illumation evens as the bulbs heat up.

As you mention, they do get hot - each bulb has it's own ballast crammed inside the screw base, where as tubular fluorescent bulbs have external ballasts that run much cooler. Note regarding UV leds: read the specs very carefully - the cheap ones on Ebay, although called "UV" actually have very poor output in the 360 nm range.
Yep. I figured out it takes some time to stabilize the output, so I do a pre-exposure warm-up of 10 mins. As per the LEDs, I do realize there are some complications like the spectral output and the longevity. I am not there yet, but it looks much easier and cheaper to build (if you can solder) and cooler to run. I am good with what I have for now. Can't imagine going above 11x14 in the near (or intermediate) future.
 
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Adam W

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I picked up a facial tanning machine. I plan to do tests, but does anyone have suggestions for light-to-paper distance and exposure times?
 

Vaughn

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I bought some black light tubes for my light box and when I made my exposure and developed the cyanotype in water, the whole image washed off. I use Corral Life Actinic tubes and they work well...

If the image develops and washes off, that is often caused by the chemicals drying on top on the paper instead of the chemicals soaking a little into the paper before drying. Hitting the freshly-coated paper too soon with a hair drier will cause this, as well as over-sized paper. Before I learned this, I cried watching that expensive platinum wash off my paper!! But whatever the reason, I'm glad those lights work for you -- I have heard that they do very well.

I have read that some people are noticing a drop-off in UV light over time with the LEDs. But if they are cheap enough and one's system allows for easy replacement, then LEDs might work well. Some sort of UV light integrator or UV meter would be nice to have if the drop-off curve is steep.

For platinum work, I have found the tubes to be consistant and easy to work with. I used the BL tubes instead of the BLB -- basically the same tube, but with the BLB, you pay more for the internal filtering of the white light. When I build a set of lights, I make it twice the size I need. That way I can have two contact printing frames going at once...perhaps working on the final copies of one negative while starting tests with a new negative at the same time. My exposure times for carbon printing (different type of UV lights) can run to an hour, so often I will have three sets of lights going, working on three negatives at once.

I remember tales of Linda Conner walking around her backyard garden, checking on her many contact printing frames scattered about. Exposing by inspection with POP paper. What a civilized way to do photography!

An advantage with UV tubes in the classic bottom-less box style is that the amount of UV tossed around the room is kept to a minimum. And with the printing frame on the bottom, most of the heat tends to rise upwards if well ventilated or fan-assisted, and I find heat build-up not to be significant. My 750W mercury vapor lamps I use for carbon printing are different beasts all together, and require a fan to push a good amount of air across the face of the contact printing frame to keep the glass down to a reasonable temperature.

Using a fan would be good idea for any process/UV light source. With many processes, moisture content of the materail significantly changes the results, as does the temperature at which those changes are made at. So a drying heat should be avoided...as well as tanning your eyeballs. Avoid that.
 
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Vaughn

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I picked up a facial tanning machine. I plan to do tests, but does anyone have suggestions for light-to-paper distance and exposure times?

I am assuming some sort of built-in reflector, so getting real close probably will have no advantage over pulling back a little. Probably close to what the instructions recommend for faces...maybe a little closer...12" to 16"? And I still suggest a small desk fan to blow air across the glass.

Exposure time -- do a quick test for your miminum exposure time to get a black through the film rebate. That will be your ballpark time for most of your work (with that paper/process, anyway). Can't really guess at a starting time...5 minute intervals?
 

NedL

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FWIW I wired this sixpack of inexpensive blb cfls inside a plasic milk crate that fits perfectly over my contact printing frame. I don't do cyanotypes, but they work fine for salt prints, sepia prints ( like VDB ) and another iron salt process that relies upon AFC. Not a fancy plate burner, but I do most of my printing in the sun and mostly use the bulbs for tests.
 
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Take a look at this article. Keep in mind that this article does not mention UV LEDs. I've built both types of boxes. Florescent and LED. I prefer my LED light box. It doesn't require any warmup time. My florescent I have to leave on for the duration of my print session while my LED light box I have a timer that turns off the box when the exposure is done.

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Light/light.html
 
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If the image develops and washes off, that is often caused by the chemicals drying on top on the paper instead of the chemicals soaking a little into the paper before drying.

Thanks for all the great info Vaughn!
 
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Adam W

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I am assuming some sort of built-in reflector, so getting real close probably will have no advantage over pulling back a little. Probably close to what the instructions recommend for faces...maybe a little closer...12" to 16"? And I still suggest a small desk fan to blow air across the glass.

Exposure time -- do a quick test for your miminum exposure time to get a black through the film rebate. That will be your ballpark time for most of your work (with that paper/process, anyway). Can't really guess at a starting time...5 minute intervals?
Thanks, Vaughn. The unit I bought looks like the one Bert posted in post #3, above. I'll start with 12" and go from there. And I'll make up some test strips, too. I was using 3-4 min in full winter sun, so I'll start at five and go up from there. And I'll monitor the temp, too.
 

Vaughn

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Great! You should be able to get a little closer with that type...perhaps 6 to 8 inches. Some of those units have tip-over safely switches so you may not be able to lay it down flat as suggested in post #3. But I have used lights in a vertical set-up just fine.
 
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Adam W

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The facial tanning unit arrived, cosmetically challenged but working just fine. I did a couple of tests using a cardboard box and built the unit below out of a couple of wine boxes a colleague rescued from the sidewalk and some scraps from the garage. Some sawing, drilling, nailing, screwing, and gluing, and voila!

I did a few prints this morning. I'm getting times of 5:30 to 7 minutes at a distance of about six inches--very nice!. Coverage is pretty uniform so far.

Now I gotta nail down the negatives. I only have a low-end 4-color inkjet and it doesn't put down a very dense coat of ink on transparencies. I've made some nice prints by printing two copies of the negative and taping them together for more density. The printer does pretty well on paper, so I may experiment with waxed paper negatives. I'd love any advice or guidance.

Adam

IMG_2299.JPG
 

Richard Man

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Is the UV light in the tanning machine good enough for Pt/Pd too?
 
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