Please advise - first 35mm rangefinder camera sought.

[albireo]

Dear all

I am mainly a 6x6 TLR user though I also occasionally still use my 35mm SLRs.

I'm finding I'm enjoying a lot the quiet TLR experience and the fact that I can easily get sharp shots at 1/15th of a second with my TLRs, something I've rarely been able to do with my SLRs.

I would like a similarly quiet, simple experience in 35mm and I'm tempted by the world of 35mm rangefinders, which I know nothing about.

Which robust, compact and reliable rangefinder would you recommend? The choice is bewildering.

Two features I'm after:

• I only want to use it with one lens. Ideally a 35 or 40mm, which should be reasonably compact and good quality at f/2.8 and smaller apertures. Nothing really heavy, huge, ultrabright, etc.
• I am after a bright, huge viewfinder. My Olympus OM2n has spoiled me in this respect. I heard some rangefinders have viewfinders with 1X magnification. That would be wonderful, though anything in the .8-1x range would do I guess? Of course, the viewfinder should be well matched to the lens you'll be recommending to use. Ideally, I'd like to keep composing with both my eyes open, just like I do with my TLRs.
• I am not particularly concerned about mechanical/electronic. Some electronics (eg cell battery to power meter) acceptable, though fully mechanical without meter is also ok.

Budget is not a concern if it has the features I'm after. It will be my one and only rangefinder for the foreseeable future.

Thank you in advance for any recommendations.

 

[koraks]

I'm not a rangefinder and/or a Leica guy (at all), but I believe it's hard to beat the Leica viewfinders, especially the more recent ones. They also have the other features you want, depending on what lens you put on.

Personally I have a Ricoh 500G that I occasionally use because it's so small and lightweight, but the viewfinder is quite small, the optics are fair but certainly not excellent and it's overall a rather rudimentary piece of kit. Cheap, though (at least they were when I got mine), very small and portable, and quite reliable, too.

 

[logan2z]

If, as you say, budget is not a concern and your primary focal length is 35mm, then I'd look at a Leica M2. Or, if you want to buy new, then any of the current Leica film cameras (M-A, MP, or new M6) will serve you well. The M2 is a good choice because of the single frame lines for 35, 50, and 90mm focal lengths, so it offers an excellent viewfinder experience for users of 35mm lenses.

 

[guangong]

If you want a small robust camera with a lens in your range, I would look for a Rollei 35. The Rollei has a bright viewfinder, but no rangefinder. I have never found this to be a handicap. It does have a built in meter. The camera comes in several versions, originally with a 3.5 Tessar, and later with a faster lens. I prefer those with the 3.5 lens. However, make sure that the camera has a wrist strap. This is important for holding the camera steady. The strap is attached to the side of the camera. Don’t buy a Rollei 35 without strap.
I was in a camera store the day camera first came to market and bought one. Same camera still trouble free.

 

[brbo]

Contax T if you are after a compact rangefinder with a great lens. If it had focusing down to 0.5m and exposure lock I would buy 10 of them. Alas, I only have one.

If budget is not a concern then a Leica M3 or Zeiss Ikon ZM for best viewfinder experience.

 

[Laurent]

If you shoot 35/40mm, I'm afraid there will be no 1:1 finder.

I've been in your place, shot a TLR for years before getting a Leica M4 (fun is, I've got a TLR because I failed to find a cheap RF for testing, so I bid on a Yashica and fell in love with TLRs...)

I could not be happier than having the choice between the Rolleiflex and the M4, for me the philosophy is almost the same: handheld meter, meter when I feel light changed enough, and click the shutter when I want the shot.

So I guess I'd suggest a M4 should suit you, if the budget is not an issue. I'm using mine with a V1 35mm Nokton, and do not feel the need to "upgrade".
A Jupiter 12 is also a capable lens, which will be less expensive

 

[brbo]

If you shoot 35/40mm, I'm afraid there will be no 1:1 finder.

Bessa R3A or R3M.

 

[TomR55]

If you want a small robust camera with a lens in your range, I would look for a Rollei 35. The Rollei has a bright viewfinder, but no rangefinder. I have never found this to be a handicap. It does have a built in meter. The camera comes in several versions, originally with a 3.5 Tessar, and later with a faster lens. I prefer those with the 3.5 lens. However, make sure that the camera has a wrist strap. This is important for holding the camera steady. The strap is attached to the side of the camera. Don’t buy a Rollei 35 without strap.
I was in a camera store the day camera first came to market and bought one. Same camera still trouble free.

I would second this recommendation with a caveat. I used an M2, equipped with an 35mm Summicron lens for nearly thirty years as my only camera. These cameras are old and you should consider purchasing one if you can find a dependable Leica service technician! That said: I put a lot of film through this camera (dozens of rolls weekly). I had the camera CLA’d every 8 years. I never had any problems, other than minor repairs. I gifted this camera to a niece who is living in Germany and is interested in doing something with film photography. I replaced it with a couple of M4s.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Leica M2 with 35mm 2.8 Summaron. Might as well start where you will end up

 

[xkaes]

http://www.subclub.org/minman/leanmean.pdf

 

[ntenny]

A Jupiter 12 is also a capable lens, which will be less expensive

Will the M Leicas take a Jupiter-12? Most non-Soviet LTM cameras won’t, because the big rear element runs into camera internals. Definitely a nice lens though.

-NT

 

[Alan9940]

When one thinks of rangefinder cameras, the mind jumps immediately to Leica. Great cameras! I have two M6's. As others have said, if money is no object I'd go with any of the Leica's mentioned. If it doesn't work out for you, you could probably sell it for what you paid. I would count on a CLA, though.

If you're not sure a rangefinder style camera will fit your needs, you may want to look at the Russian offerings in the Zorki or Fed lines. I've never used one myself, but I've heard the Zorki 4 or Zorki 4K (if you prefer a film winding lever) are nice. IMO, these cameras are cheap enough that you could try it out without worry of recovering your investment cost, if things don't work out as you expect.

 

[xkaes]

Much depends on if you want interchangeable lenses. If you can live with a fixed lens, GREAT, take-everywhere cameras are available for under $100 -- see above link.

 

[Laurent]

Bessa R3A or R3M.

Thanks, I learned something today! I assumed it wasn't feasible to have 1:1 AND 35/40 framelines.

 

[Laurent]

Will the M Leicas take a Jupiter-12? Most non-Soviet LTM cameras won’t, because the big rear element runs into camera internals. Definitely a nice lens though.

-NT

I think it works on any Film Leica M, save for M5/CL due to the meter arm.
Works like a charm on my M4. It was my first "M" lens when I struggled to find something suitable AND not breaking the bank. I stupidly sold it, so I bought another one.

It works fine also on a LTM Leica, like my IIIa

 

[guangong]

I would second this recommendation with a caveat. I used an M2, equipped with an 35mm Summicron lens for nearly thirty years as my only camera. These cameras are old and you should consider purchasing one if you can find a dependable Leica service technician! That said: I put a lot of film through this camera (dozens of rolls weekly). I had the camera CLA’d every 8 years. I never had any problems, other than minor repairs. I gifted this camera to a niece who is living in Germany and is interested in doing something with film photography. I replaced it with a couple of M4s.

I have used M3 and M4 before acquiring Rollei 35, but for an easy to carry camera made to last (used mine trouble free for over half century) the only thing

 

[jimjm]

Consider something like a Canon P. It has a 1:1 viewfinder with framelines for 35, 50 and 100mm lenses. Accepts a huge variety of screw-mount lenses like Canon, Leica and FSU lenses. Not as refined as a Leica M body, but much less expensive (in chrome) and still very well-made. Fully mechanical but I find it to be an easier shooter than a Leica screw-mount body.

 

[albireo]

Thank you everyone. A fair bit of research to do for me.

A few people have been proposing the small fixed-lens options. It's an intriguing idea. But I do have a doubt: how's the viewfinder on those? I've never looked through a Rollei 35 or Yashica Electro or Contax T.

Does it look about as good as looking through the viewfinder of an OM2n or a Pentax MX? In terms of tiny 35mm fixed lens cameras, I've only ever used a Minox 35 GT and the viewfinder experience was poor.

That Canon P looks interesting. I see Nikon, too, used to make rangefinders. How are those Nikon S2s? Just collectors' pieces or can they actually be used?

 

[mshchem]

Leica M4 35mm Summicron. Done.

 

[Paul Howell]

I used a Canon 7s as a second body to a Nikon F then F2 when a working PJ. I had used M2 and 3 in the Air Force, had a Leica IIIG along with the Canon. Although the IIIG had the best build quality the 7S was my go to body. Built in viewfinder for the 35mm, (not for the 28mm) and 100, the meter was coupled but not TTL, accurate in most lighting, and loading was much easier. I never owned a Nikon rangefinder, but lusted after a Nikon SP, even in the 70s the SP was too expensive. Although all electronic Yashica made several fixed lens rangefinders with 38 to 35 lens. I have a Konica S3, 38mm lens, tested in the day by Modern Photography and rated the lens as in the same league as Leica. It is all electronic, a point and shoot. Viewfinder is good. Although not a TTL, the light meter sensor is in the filter ring so you don't need to adjust the ASA (ISO) when using a filter. Another odd ball is the Kodak Retina IIIS. I have a Retina IIIC, the IIIS has the same layout, a bit fussy to use. It uses the same lens as the Retina Reflex III and IV, has a tab that couples to the rangefinder and changes the viewfinder to match the lens in use. The 28 mm does require a sperate viewfinder. Limited range of lens, 28, 35, 50, 85, and 135. Leaf shutter, top speed is 1/500th, and used EV system exposure, the light meter is not coupled.

 

[sojournermike]

Ok - a bit of my background. I fell (back) into rangefinders via a Zorki 4K. I’ve owned and used Zeiss Ikon ZM, Leica M4, MP and MA with a range of lenses. I’ve also got experience with an M3. Plus various slr’s, dslr’s, mirrorless and an old fixed lens rf when I was about 12.

For 35/2.8 and big bright viewfinder, it would be hard to find anything better than a Zeiss Ilon ZM and Zeiss ZM C-Biogon 35mm f2.8. This is a sublime pairing and one I carry often. The viewfinder is designed to be brighter than the Leica and, although there are quirks like the rf patch not moving with focus, it’s utterly brilliant with and without glasses.

Downsides compared to Leica are:

- feels less solid, but actually lighter is good
- electronic shutter - more accurate but harder to find repair if needed
- finish is less robust - does this really matter

Positives are:
- actually better viewfinder
- lighter
- auto-exposure that works if you want it
- Zeiss 35/2.8 is sublime (so is 35/2 also) but can be used in a Leica of course

I’m on my third Ikon - never had a problem with one but I always have bought another when I’ve sold them.I also have a pair of MAs and an M4. The Leica are pretty similar - the MAs have the benefit of being new but the M4 does the same job. The MAs feel slightly nicer in the hand to shoot with than the Ikon, but the Ikon viewfinder is really better and the camera is a real gem. All work brilliantly with 35mm or 50mm. The MP is an MA with metering - it’s really nice but I prefer the totally clean MA viewfinder - ymmv

This is worth a read

Zeiss Ikon - The Online Photographer

For completeness, don’t worry about 1:1 viewfinders. They don’t work with 35mm lenses on 35mm film. Standards Leica or ZM vf’s are fine. I would go for a ZI or any Leica M4 on and not worry. Lens would be. Zeiss 35/2.8 C-Biogon.

Alternative lens might be a Voigtlander 35/2.0 Ultron, but I’ve not used one so hard to say. I have used the old 35/2.5 Colour-Skopar which is lovely, but I’d gale the Zeiss first given a choice.

Hope that’s helpful

Mike

 

[eli griggs]

A Canonet 17ql, Japan or Taiwanese built, Japanese builds can be priced at a premium.

It an excellent, fast, fixed 40mm lens, with a leaf shutter, and it's a mechanical plus, when wanted, controlled by its meter, on automatic, when flipped on, but, this camera is great even without a working meter.

Warning, don't fool with the mechanical self timer, so many old analog cameras have issues with these jamming and the Canonet is prone to do the same.

The electric eye for the meter is inside the lense's filter coverage so metered screens will not need any P.S. math work.

Cheers.

 

[JPD]

You can find a nice Kodak Retina IIc with the excellent 2,8/50 Rodenstock Heligon lens for little money. The finder isn't very big, but easy to see through even with glasses. Synchro-Compur shutter, just like on the Rolleis.

 

[reddesert]

One of the nicest viewfinders in a 35mm rangefinder is the Konica auto S2 (fixed, 45/1.8 lens), but nobody uses them because they cost too little.

 

[brbo]

A few people have been proposing the small fixed-lens options. It's an intriguing idea. But I do have a doubt: how's the viewfinder on those? I've never looked through a Rollei 35 or Yashica Electro or Contax T.

I can only speak for Contax T. Leica's viewfinder (even 0.72) has higher magnification than Contax T (0.6). You have to consider the size of this camera. In use, I'd say it's not a problem, I'd rate it as about the same experience as with a consumer SLR. If you are only after the biggest viewfinder, Contax T is not a camera to consider.