Planning to send my Mamiya lens in for haze removal

GRHazelton · Sep 4, 2020

You might contact Professional Camera Repair in Houston, TX. www.professionalcamerarepair.com. I sent them my Bronica S2a for remediation of the mirror bumper/view screen positioners, this fix is needed so that the camera can focus accurately. They did this and also a CLA for a moderate price, and reasonable turn-around time. From what I gather the Bronny is pretty complicated inside....

Dave Krueger · Sep 4, 2020

Thanks, GRHazelton. Actually, I've been swapping messages with Midwest Camera Repair in Michigan about separating and re-gluing the elements. Also, they are an authorized Nikon repair facility, so I'm interested in trying them out since I have a lot of Nikon equipment.

GRHazelton said:
You might contact Professional Camera Repair in Houston, TX. www.professionalcamerarepair.com. I sent them my Bronica S2a for remediation of the mirror bumper/view screen positioners, this fix is needed so that the camera can focus accurately. They did this and also a CLA for a moderate price, and reasonable turn-around time. From what I gather the Bronny is pretty complicated inside....

btaylor · Sep 4, 2020

Dave Krueger said:
Thanks, GRHazelton. Actually, I've been swapping messages with Midwest Camera Repair in Michigan about separating and re-gluing the elements. Also, they are an authorized Nikon repair facility, so I'm interested in trying them out since I have a lot of Nikon equipment.

I would be very interested to know if they will re-glue elements. I have a Rollei that would benefit from such a repair- please let us know what you find out.

Dave Krueger · Sep 5, 2020

btaylor, Midwest said they "bake the element group to get apart, clean off the old cement and re-cement the group back together." The bad news is that the lenses sometimes crack, irreparably damaging the lens. They said that happens less than 5% of the time. If that happens, I'd be back to looking for a junk lens from which I could salvage a replacement lens pair. But, a lens as heavily fogged as mine is no good as is, so the risk is acceptable. Whatever happens, I will post the final outcome.

btaylor said:
I would be very interested to know if they will re-glue elements. I have a Rollei that would benefit from such a repair- please let us know what you find out.

btaylor · Sep 5, 2020

Thanks for the info, Dave. I have been poking around for well over a year to find anyone who will do lens element repair. The few who I found have retired or just stopped providing the service. Midwest Camera Repair looks like they are fully equipped and knowledgeable on lens repair and calibration. Looking forward to hearing about your results.

AnselMortensen · Sep 6, 2020

Good to hear of someone that offers that service.

Dave Krueger · Sep 22, 2020

AnselMortensen said:
Good to hear of someone that offers that service.

Well, Midwest Camera Repair called and told me they can't do what they told me they can do, so they are just going to send it back as is. Note, that I sent both the lens and body because they told me they needed the body to recheck the focus after regluing the lens.

Here is what they told me via email before I sent it in:

That’s not normal fog from fungus, that’s lens separation, the optical cement (glue) holding the two elements together is deteriorating.

That’s a very time consuming job and sometimes the elements crack, what we have to do is bake the element group to get apart, clean off the old cement and re-cement the group back together. The lens focus usually has to be adjusted after.

The cost is $195.00 + return shipping, includes clean, lube and calibrate. Sometimes (less then 5%) of the time the element can crack during the process, since the part is not available it would be un-repairable and we can’t be held responsible.

Very disappointing. For medium format, I am now limited to a 1950s Rolleiflex or using a roll film adapter on one of my 4x5s. After buying a replacement 127mm KL lens on ebay rated as NEAR MINT and finding that it had the same problem, I'm not inclined to keep buying more lenses until I manage to find one with no haze.

Tel · Sep 22, 2020

Dave:
I was reading this thread with interest. I've got a couple of lenses for my Mamiya C2 with the same sort of problem. I solved it by swapping lens elements around (between lens sets and between taking and viewing lenses) and re-collimating them myself. I've bought several lenses (this was the 65mm--my other focal lengths have had no problems) the way you did and found the same problem in most of them. In the case of the C series lenses, it seems that the older ones were less likely to be fogged: maybe they used a different cement formulation. So I was hoping to learn that Midwest Camera would do the work (even with a disclaimer of liability) because I'd like to bring another 65mm lens set back to good working condition. There used to be a company in or near Denver that did re-cementing and re-coating but I have a dim recollection that they're no longer in business. I once sent a lens to Gevorg Vartanyan at Arax in Kiev and he did a magnificent job, but I know for certain that he doesn't do this work any more. I wonder if there's anyone left in this "throw it away" culture who does this stuff....

flavio81 · Sep 22, 2020

I have a 127/3.8C with exactly the same problem.

flavio81 · Sep 22, 2020

PonySoldier1887 said:
Consider that lens coatings are metallic salts evaporated onto the lens surfaces and you can easily see why coatings are so easily damaged.

Coatings aren't damaged by acetone or alcohol or naphta. They are very resilient.

shutterfinger · Sep 22, 2020

Read this thread https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164363 some helpful tips about mid page.

Alan Edward Klein · Sep 22, 2020

Can minor scratches be removed from the back lens?

shutterfinger · Sep 22, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
Can minor scratches be removed from the back lens?

By polishing but that will change some of the chactercisits of the lens including optical focal length and will remove the coating on the scratched/polished surface.
I would not mess with it unless it causes detrimental effects on imahes made with that lens. Another copy of that lens will likely be less expensive.

Dave Krueger · Sep 22, 2020

Thanks for the replies. I did check out the link, Shutterfinger. I've looked at a ton of lens repair threads, but I hadn't seen that one.

The element pair that has the fog is encased in a metal sleeve which is folded over on the end. In other words, I think the end of the sleeve would need to be removed on a lathe to access the actual glass. I have a lathe, but I think that may be more effort than I'm willing to put into it. Also, I noticed that lens cement comes in different diffraction indexes and I would have no idea which one to get. Then, there's the challenge of centering the elements. These details are putting me well outside my comfort zone. There's currently a thread about the Rolleiflex Hy6 that I've been following. It's a bit pricey, but at my age, I would be long dead before the lenses developed any haze...

shutterfinger · Sep 23, 2020

Most of what I've posted lately in this thread is what I have obtained from this form and others from compendent members.
That folded edge can be opened by gently prying it up a little at a time going around the lens several times until the cells will come out being careful not to scratch or chip the glass. The barrel is brass and will work easier when warm.

Now, with that said, heat your oven to 325°F, place the lens on the center rack and leave for 30 minutes, turn the oven off, let the lens cool completely then repeat 3 times. Wait a few days and if the lens has not cleared repeat the process. You'll likely have a clear lens to use for years before you expire and at a much lower cost.
Lens of that era were cemented with Canadian Balsaum, which melts at 350°F if memory serves so 325°F will soften it enough for it to reseal itself.

Doing a little research I find that Canadian Balsaum has a flash point of 120°F. It was phased out in the 1940's according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_balsam.

Alan, the wiki article says it can be used to fix scratches in glass.

itsdoable · Sep 23, 2020

Dave Krueger said:
...The element pair that has the fog is encased in a metal sleeve which is folded over on the end. In other words, I think the end of the sleeve would need to be removed on a lathe to access the actual glass....

That's probably the reason Midwest wouldn't do the repair. Cutting open a sealed group takes the repair to another level, separating balsam cemented elements and recementing is simple by comparison. I've done both.

And once you have cut open a seals group, you have to do something to re-assemble it.

Dave Krueger said:
...There's currently a thread about the Rolleiflex Hy6 that I've been following....

reddesert · Sep 23, 2020

Dave Krueger said:
Very disappointing. For medium format, I am now limited to a 1950s Rolleiflex or using a roll film adapter on one of my 4x5s. After buying a replacement 127mm KL lens on ebay rated as NEAR MINT and finding that it had the same problem, I'm not inclined to keep buying more lenses until I manage to find one with no haze.

My guess is that the best way to address this problem is to not buy on ebay, or give up on the RB entirely, but to get a lens from a store with a real person you can talk to to discuss your concern, and a return guarantee.

Used medium format gear seems to be in kind of short supply right now, but that could be a temporary combination of pandemic supply/demand issues and revived interest in film.

Arthurwg · Sep 23, 2020

Dave Krueger said:
I've been contacting camera repair shops and looking on ebay for a replacement lens. All the similar lenses on ebay are "From Japan" and are listed as EXC ++++++ or N.MINT even though the description on some of them say they have haze, so my trust factor is pretty low on getting a used lens in good condition.

Many Japanese sellers vastly over-rate what they are selling. I've seen items that were obviously badly scratched and rusted rated Mint-, not to mention that they are often very over priced. I find this distressing.

Dennis-B · Sep 23, 2020

Arthurwg said:
Many Japanese sellers vastly over-rate what they are selling. I've seen items that were obviously badly scratched and rusted rated Mint-, not to mention that they are often very over priced. I find this distressing.

That is the case now. Until around a year ago, the opposite was true. I've bought a number of cameras and lenses from Japanese sellers, and my experience was always that they underrated the quality of the good they sold. I've bought Hasselblad, Nikon, Mamiya, Canon, etc., and they've been extremely high quality.

I've noticed, though that some of the items I've examined lately, have not been as high quality. I believe that part of that, is that the literal volume of used equipment, especially large and medium format is shrinking, and the "cream of the crop" is likely gone, except for the hoarded items.

In the mid-late 1980's, the Japanese were on buying sprees for collectible equipment, especially Leica and Hasselblad. They paid outrageous prices at the camera shows, and that equipment surfaced at what could be termed "bargain prices" in the late 1990's.

Dave Krueger · Sep 23, 2020

I will have another look at the glued elements when I get the lens back from the shop.

I came across this step-by-step tutorial on regluing lens elements. I also looked up a source for lab grade Canada Balsam. The lens is worthless as is.

Shutterfinger, if the flashpoint of Canada Balsam is 120F, isn't it a bad idea to heat it to 350F?

reddesert, I agree that it would solve a lot of problems if I could inspect a lens before buying it. We have one camera shop that sells some used gear. I will check them out.

Arthurwg and Dennis-B: I am very skeptical about buying anything from Japan because they over rate items. It's bad enough having to return an item purchased from within the US. Unfortunately, the lens I got from within the US turned out to be have obvious haze even as the seller claimed it didn't. Seems like I put off buying new film camera equipment my whole life because I couldn't afford it, but now that I can afford it, it's no loner being made. LOL!

shutterfinger · Sep 23, 2020

Dave Krueger said:
Shutterfinger, if the flashpoint of Canada Balsam is 120F, isn't it a bad idea to heat it to 350F?

SKGrimes had a section on recementing lens cell but they have removed it in their latest web site design. They showed laying the lens cells on a electric hot plate and I think they turned it up to 450°F.
This MSDS says the flash point is 120°F http://www.newportglass.com/amsbalsm.htm . I do not know if that is due to the solvent used to liquify it or not. From reading several recementing articles it seems a relitave high heat is needed to seperate the elements.
The light bulbs referenced in that article are Incasdent and get very hot.
Dried balsaum likely has different chactercistics once cured than when in a liquid state.

I bought a Nikon D800 from Japan a little over a year ago for a decent price. It had fewer shutter cycles than listed and was as good as the listing in all other respects. I had to look through about 150 listings then found it in the seller's ebay store.
I've looked for 80-200 f2.8 D lens and found most from Japan were near junk for a low price and high shipping. You have to know the equipment to sort out the junk from the good. Skip indivual listings or dealers with lower than a 98% feedback rating as a general rule.

Bormental · Sep 24, 2020

I have spent a lot of money on Japanese listings in 2020 and everything I have received had been perfectly fitting to the description. The only issue I saw was slower speeds on the otherwise immaculate Mamiya TLR lens, and the seller took it back with full refund + payment for the reverse shipping. The only american seller I bought from this year, has managed to publish 14 photos of his camera, all in bad light, conveniently omitting cat hair and skipping the only possible angle where a missing part was visible.

Meh. Japan or nothing. 100% of the time.

Dave Krueger · Sep 24, 2020

itsdoable said:
That's probably the reason Midwest wouldn't do the repair. Cutting open a sealed group takes the repair to another level, separating balsam cemented elements and recementing is simple by comparison. I've done both.

And once you have cut open a seals group, you have to do something to re-assemble it.

You are correct. The invoice says the following:

"These elements are part of metal casings, they are molded into and there is no way to open them."

They also pointed out that both the front and rear groups have the same fogging issue, which I have now confirmed. Not sure why I didn't initially see it on the rear group.

I think the elements may be glued into the metal casing rather than the casing being bent over around the edges. The edges of the glass are gloss black and the metal sleeve is flat black. I scratched away at the gloss black and it is either paint or black glue, maybe epoxy. I suppose I could apply some acetone to it and see if the elements can be freed from the sleeve. I suspect the manufacturing operation to blacken the edges of the glass is separate from mounting the pair into the sleeve. I tried to see if it was possible to unscrew the elements from the sleeve using a couple of those rubber cone shaped grippers, but it was a no-go.

Here is a picture of the glued elements from the rear group:

Dennis-B · Sep 24, 2020

Not to put to fine a point on the discussion, but is repair a necessary option? A quick look on eBay shows a number of 127mm f/3.8 C's for sale in all sorts of conditions. Having had cameras worked on at Midwest, for instance, I can attest that repairs on obsolete equipment at Midwest can be quite expensive.

Unless the lens has some sentimental value, I think I'd bite the bullet and get another one. There are several which list as "for parts", and you may be able to put together a decent lens that way, or have a repair service reassemble it from the collective parts.

Just a thought.

shutterfinger · Sep 24, 2020

Follow the instructions in post #20 or heat to boiling in a pan of water and boil for 10 minutes, let cool completely, repeat several times over several days before attempting to remove from the mounting.
You may have to wait a week or two after the heatings for the elements to clear.

Planning to send my Mamiya lens in for haze removal

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